BIO: Enrico E. Manalo is a practitioner of Conflict Management, Diversity, Equity, & Inclusion, & Anti-Oppression. His interest in anti-oppression stems from his background in the arts and time spent teaching English in Vietnam. Enrico believes that peace is participatory; the only peace we can achieve is peace we intentionally create. Crucial to that peace is how we communicate. Communication for Enrico is not only outward, but inward as well. When we don't understand ourselves, it's difficult to relate to one another such that we center our shared humanity. To address oppression, we must first understand how we play into it.

Transcript:

Enrico: For somebody who was really excited to work for this company and you had all these ideas, but nobody was listening to you. Like the third or fourth time, you're like, “Why am I even here? Why should I even bother?”

And that's a big issue because having a different perspective often means that you are seeing stuff that others are not, which is like one of the main benefits of diversity, whether it's like product development or figuring out a process or, you know, there's so many applications.

But if those ideas are not shared, then what ends up happening is those ideas, of course, don't make it into the company culture. But the other side of that is that means that the dominant culture that is not working for everybody, it just continues on because there is no reason to interrupt or disrupted.

Andrea: Welcome to DEI Career Conversations. I'm your host and DEI career coach, Andrea G. Tatum. In this episode, I got a chance to sit down with Enrico E. Manalo. He's a practitioner of conflict management, diversity, equity, and inclusion, and anti-oppression. He holds an M.A. in conflict resolution from UMass Boston and a BFA in writing, literature, and publishing from Emerson College. His research interest includes how conflict is handled following DEI training, organizational silence, and group and intergroup dynamics. Enrico is also a seasoned podcast host and so we’ll make sure we link to his podcast in the show notes below as well. I think you all are going to really enjoy this perspective in this conversation, so let's get into it.

Welcome, welcome, welcome. Enrico, I am so, so glad to have you on this show today. I would love for you to just jump right in by telling us about your own DEI career journey.

Enrico: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so, so much, Andrea, for having me on. You know, I'm so glad we get to do this. And, you know, it's always great to be in space with you. So if I'm going to begin, I mean, you know, I feel like, like many practitioners that I have spoken to, my professional journey is, of course deeply intertwined with my personal journey. But if I had to kind of pick a place to begin, it would really begin with my love of writing. And that's something that really gave me a sense of identity, especially in my teenage years and it's what I went to study for my undergrad degree. And while that might not seem like your typical place to start, for me it was really understanding that I had some agency over envisioning or re-envisioning the way things are, you know, all caps there, right? So for me, the act of writing and if I remember correctly, you are also a writer. Is that is that correct?

Andrea: I have, I have dabbled in my, in my life, just a little bit. Yes.

Enrico: All right. Well, so one of the things that's always stuck with me is the blank piece of paper in front of you. A blank page is an infinity of possibility. And it only really takes shape once your mind, your personality, your humanity, interacts with it. And like, that's where everything comes from. Of course, you're bringing so much to that with you.

But it was really understanding that not only can I shape what's on the page, but then I'm also shaping how others perceive, you know, that page when they encounter it. And that might be separated by time, by distance. In fact, most of the time writers are are not going to come into contact with the people that are consuming their work. And so it's this very weird way of relating with people because there is sometimes a deeply, intensely, like emotional connection that can be established without ever really knowing who the other person is. But you do kind of get a snapshot of their brain in that time. And so as I was studying creative writing, well, I don't know if you know this or if the audience knows this, but there's no such thing as like, a poetry job. Like there are a couple, but you can just like show up to Poetry Inc., which is not a real company and be like, I'd like to submit my resume, you know, like, so I had to figure out how to make myself some, some money. And what ended up happening was I got a certificate in teaching English as a foreign language, otherwise known as a TEFL certificate. And from there I went to live and work in Vietnam, and it was really through that experience that I started to understand that language is a lot more than grammar and vocabulary. Like what you are actually doing is like, well, language is culture, I guess is the short way of saying that. And so a lot of the difficulty that my specialization was advanced students, especially those who wanted to study in English-speaking contexts.

And so a lot of what I was helping them to do was to navigate those cultural elements, right? The common refrain that I heard was, “ I understood the words that they said or that, you know, I read on the page, but I didn't get what it meant.” It's like, Oh, right. Because there's this whole universe, a whole cosmology of meaning here that is not necessarily accessible through verb conjugations, and like how the different pronunciations of the, -ed endings on words, you know. And so that really got me reflecting on how I was a part of this Anglophone culture that I belonged to or not. Right? So I grew up in New Hampshire and this was like I was born in the late eighties, so late eighties, early nineties was like when I was gaining consciousness, you know. And one of the very first things that I really realized is there are not really other people around me who not only look like me but know the things that I know or see things. The way that I see them. And so that was like not the easiest thing for me to deal with at the time. Like, I think as people of a certain age can remember, like the greatest remedy that was offered to me at the time was, well, sticks and stones can break your bones, but words will never hurt me. It's like, you know, that didn't sit right as a child. But then now as an adult, it's like words will never hurt me. Well, what about policy? What about law? What about, like, you know, like, words definitely hurt people and, you know, so language was actually kind of my way of grappling with the culture that was not sitting right with me. And yeah. So eventually I kind of ended up leaving Vietnam, kind of trying to do something else with this perspective that I gained. And I was very, very fortunate. A family friend, kind of saw that I was applying to law school and pulled me aside and said, Hey, I've known you your whole life. And I think that maybe law would end up kind of crushing you. You know, like, I know what you're about. I know you're sensibilities. And I think that, for how I've experienced law, it’s maybe not the right fit for you. So why don't you come and sit in on some of my workshops and just see how how it hangs for you?

And as it turned out, this family friend was an early pioneer of what is now known as conflict management or conflict resolution. One of the first students of a practitioner named Morton Deutsch, who was at Columbia Teachers College for a very long time and often credited as one of the forefathers of that field. And so through him, I really got to understanding that what I was helping my students with was cultural conflicts, and that a lot of what I was experienced growing up were in fact cultural conflicts. And then later I also understood that, yes, cultural conflicts, but also racial conflicts.

And so from there I was introduced to some great people at the University of Massachusetts, Boston, which has a conflict resolution department and program. And so I got an M.A. at that grad school, and through that I had a couple of really great experiences.

I became a mediator, but I was also able to do some work with a, they call themselves a virtual exchange, and the name of the organization is Soliya. And so what they do is they try to equip college students with the skills to dialog across difference. And one of the applications that they found for that was they were founded right around the time that 9/11 happened. And so one of the programs that they have is their connect program, which connects people from non-Muslim majority nations to people from Muslim majority nations. And so I ended up facilitating a lot of dialogs between those two populations, which really kind of got me thinking more about the intersection of culture and race and like these, these different elements. And so kind of what I ended up hitting on in my thesis work was belonging. But at the time there wasn't a whole lot of robust literature or studies that had been done on belonging. And so I kind of had to pivot. And what I pivoted towards was diversity, equity, and inclusion, which had had a, it started earlier than many people kind of think. You know, like what we're in right now is actually a kind of a second wave of diversity, equity, and inclusion. But it does look very different, right? So like, for example, that first wave was characterized by like blame and shame tactics for one, which I'm sad to say some people still use today and some people still have a bad taste in their mouth about. But fortunately, you know, with the rise of inclusion, a lot of that blame and shame kind of stuff has fallen by the wayside. And so it was really in writing my thesis that I started to kind of weave these different things together, you know?

So, you know, not only like the cultural pieces, but the conflict pieces and then really kind of thinking about the question of like, of peace, right? So a lot of people kind of think that peace is like a ceasefire. Or like an absence of something. But through my graduate education, I started to see peace as something of an active process. Right? This is something that we have to always be working on. And if we don't, then we start sliding into a paradigm of violence, which, you know, I'm happy to talk about that later.

But essentially, I see the workplace as one of our strongest entry points to enact peace, you know, on a broad scale, but also to equip people with the tools to interact with one another better, to live better, and to, you know, create more space for them to live in the way that they want to live, which is really what I was after when I was a kid and feel and just kind of, like, alienated and weird and not knowing why.

Andrea: Yeah. Oh, man. Wow. That is an amazing journey into this. And I definitely feel lots of similarities. And you talked about your poetry. And so, yes, that is where I dabbled very early on around probably the same time for you, like high school and like what is this use of words? And it's so interesting because like with a lot of my clients, when I engage in workshops, I actually start a lot of my workshops with my poetry and in my poetry I, even in high school, my poetry was very reflective of my experiences as a very young child grappling with that inner conflict of who am I on the outside and how do people see me? How do people hear me? And what has society told me I am?

Enrico: Yeah.

Andrea: So I really, really that resonates with me because it is something that I think a lot of people from marginalized groups, we start to grapple with at such a young age, all of those different pieces of the puzzle. And so I love that you talk about your work in conflict and you talk about, you know, creating space, especially in workplaces, for peace to be created. And so can you talk to me a little bit about like, what does that look like? How do you think about anti-oppression, conflict management, and DEI? Like how do you bring all of those ideas together?

Enrico: Yeah. So I mean, I guess the short answer is I am still figuring it out, but I do think I have some pretty solid ideas about how to do it. And you know the, one of the things that they talk about in the academic sphere so, so often is like translating theory into practice, you know? And like, I feel like that's always going to be a work in progress.

But if I can start with the anti-oppression piece, right? So..

Andrea: Can you also start by, can you just define like what does that mean to you? Just like what is your, your baseline of what does anti-oppression mean?

Enrico: Yeah. So I think that's definitely worth talking about because if people were to say like to Google anti-oppression, they would probably find a lot of different answers. And you know, this is not a satisfactory answer. But in the realm of social sciences, this is often the case, right? People using multiple definitions for what ends up being a fairly common term. So I love that we're going here to kind of define it from the start. So for me, I don't typically turn to the definitions that are often used in say, anti-oppressive education, which is like a field of literature that you might encounter if you do Google the term. But there is, there's a guy named Johan Galtung who is considered like the father of peace research. And so for me, anti-oppression really digs into his kind of ideas of violence and peace.

And so when I'm talking about anti-oppression and what I'm really talking about is the pursuit of peace. And again, peace does not mean a cease-fire. It doesn't mean like we're all kind of neutral with each other. It's a really active process of pushing back against violence. And again, here, as you might anticipate, violence has something of a different meaning. It doesn't mean like not punching each other in the face. Of course. Of course it does encompass that as well. But this really has to do with human potential. All right. So and Galtung is very like this this this work that he wrote, really like I could feel my brain seeping out of my ears for like weeks after reading. It's like, I'm not sure I understand this. And but basically what he's talking about is like. We're familiar with the idea that humans have potential. Right. And anything that kind of gets in the way of humans realizing their potential, right, if it's avoidable, that is violence. Right. So like if for example. Well, the example of somebody punching me in the face, right. So that's harming my body. So that means that I couldn't do something that I may have wanted to do or could otherwise have done. And that interaction wasn't necessary. It didn't have to happen, but it did. Right. So it's when something is avoidable and it limits the human potential, that it is construed as violence. And so we see this on a larger scale, on greater than an interpersonal scale in what we call structural violence. So like when there are norms, standards, laws, policies, that prevent people from becoming what they could become like healthy, engaged, emotionally healthy people who are connected to their community, are productive. You know, all these positive things. Well, then that means, like, there's a system in place that is preventing them from doing so. So like a classic example is, say, redlining, if people are familiar with that. Right. So if people can't buy a home, if they're forced to live in these not-great places and to rent for their whole lives, well that prevents them from participating fully in the systems that compose American society. And we've seen that those effects have lasted for generations, like many decades. Right. So that, that's definitely an example of structural violence. And so with this definition, people might be looking around and say there's a lot of structural violence and like, yeah, there is, which is what I'm super concerned about. Right? Like there's structural violence to the degree that essentially our democracy is not functioning in the way that it should, which means that we cannot address structural violence because that is what our democracy is intended to help us to do.

So for me, one of the places that I mentioned before that we can really start pushing back against this is at work. The reason being work is so, so central to American culture and American life. It's where we create meaning. It's how we derive our livelihoods. And if you'll notice, how Americans tend to interact with each other is we introduce ourselves like, “Oh, hey, I'm Enrico. Oh, hey, Andrea, it is so nice to meet you. What do you do?”

Like, how do you add value to our society? You know, like what is, like that's absurd, you know? But that's the way it is right now. So if we want to change that, like, we can complain about it, but that's not really going to help us to do anything right. But if we can get inside the places where this happens, right, and we can help people to understand that this doesn't have to be the way that it is. It's just that the dominant culture came up with this.

And, you know, there are many things along the way that have reinforced it. And we're kind of left with that feeling, holding that bag of, well, this is just the way it is, but it doesn't have to be, right? We don't have to live in a system of structural violence. We don't have to live in a system where we are extracted from, where we are reduced to our job titles, where, you know, our worth is valued in dollars. Like it doesn't make sense.

Andrea: But like you said, it is fundamentally who we are as an American society that—right now—all of that, all of that is so wrapped up into bits and pieces of our identity. And so yeah, I absolutely see then how in the workplace, if all of that's wrapped together you're trying to break apart those systems, being able to understand where structural violence, correct me, comes into play and how do we dismantle that. So I, I love that idea and thinking about it specifically in, you know, in terms of people who are in-house doing the work of DEI, that's the work. That’s so much of the work. It's not always the pretty fun things. It's really getting in there and understanding how your individual employees are impacted by these systems and what we can do to reduce that harm. I mean that at least that's how I look at it.

Enrico: Yeah. And not only that, but if we don't reduce the harm, well, those employees like they you know, people talk about not taking your work home with you, but you do, especially if it's your primary identity in the culture that you live in. Right. And that harms you. Right. And over time, we know that this has real somatic effects on your body, right? So stress can shorten your telomeres, which are the parts of your cells that help your cells to replicate in a healthy manner. It's also what ages you. Right? So you are literally.

Andrea: Says the gray hairs.

Enrico: Yeah. Telomeres are responsible for that. Yeah. But you know, like it's not only those long-term things, but if you don't have a healthy workplace, people are not going to want to work there. Right. So, you know, we talk about the great resignation, right. And you get companies pointing fingers. Nobody wants to work. It's like, let's qualify that. Nobody wants to work for you because they don't want to kill themselves. They're trying to live, trying to make a living. Right? They're trying to be human beings. And that's not what they are being allowed to do. Right. That is structural violence right there all day. And what's going to happen is you are going to have higher rates of employee turnover. It's going to cost you about 30 times each one of those employee’s annual salary for retraining and opportunity costs. Right. And like, it's just going to be a big waste that's entirely avoidable. Yeah.

Andrea: I hope you all will hold on to that, because it's it's one of the things that I talk about. You know, a lot of people are asking for the business case of why diversity, why equity and inclusion. And I mean, I start oftentimes with simple statistics like that because it cost you a lot of money when people leave. It's so expensive when people leave. Right. Like, I just so few people really take that piece into plan. I'm like, I can save you money in the long run. By helping your organization think about things like this. And so with that being said, I mean, you're doing consulting in this work. And so what does that typical phone call look like when someone reaches out to you and they're like, Enrico, help. We need your support. What are they asking for? What what does that look like?

Enrico: Well, it can look like a couple of different things, you know. So one, I should say that I started working in DEI in 2019. So right before the pandemic, right before George Floyd and so before George Floyd, the my perception was there was like an uptick in interest in DEI, but it was still kind of like a gradual kind of thing. And then George Floyd and then absolute hockey stick, you know, skyrocketing. And so there are a lot of people who were looking for DEI work without even really knowing what it was, you know? And, you know, it's easy to point the finger and say, well, that's so performative. Well, yeah. But you also have to remember that these are folks that are trained like their whole life. Like we have to keep the company alive. You know, and that's like that's what they were trying to do. And you can't necessarily blame them for that because that's what they know how to do. That's how they live. That's how they derive meaning. That's how they derive identity and power, all these kinds of things. And so, you know, some of it has been that, you know, like bandwagoning, like, you know, just trying to save their companies or, you know, show that their companies are in alignment with the, like, popular sentiment. And I guess the other side of that, too, is the public. A lot of the public still doesn't even know what DEI  is. Right. Which is kind of an issue, because sometimes you get people saying like, we need A, B, and C. It's like, I would love to offer you those things and to charge for them. But those are not things that I can offer to you. Right? And like, part of it is we're not going in and installing software into people. Right. We are working with people that have whole senses of being and approaches to work and things like that. And these had largely been working for them. Right. And so often we encounter resistance to change and that's just very human, right?

So I guess sometimes along with that, we get people who are, you know, kind of compelled by their workers, by their employees to seek outside help for DEI training. And again, they might not exactly know what that can entail or what it cannot entail. Sometimes it's because something has happened, like a real incidence of like overt racism has happened or something that is coded as racism has happened. And so it's like a very much a conflict situation, but the organization and the employees might not know to code it that way. Along with that, sometimes following a conflict or something that has happened, there's like a lot of then like, the trust has been broken, right? So then now there's like a lot of disengagement, a lot of resistance, a lot of organizational silence, which is like something that I, I've studied a lot and, you know, just since I brought it up, organizational silence is like, there's different flavors of it. But one of the most common is when trust has been broken for one reason or another. Like, for example, you're somebody who was really excited to work for this company and you had all these ideas, but nobody was listening to you. By like the third or fourth time, you're like, “why am I even here? Why should I even bother?” And that's a big issue because having a different perspective often means that you are seeing stuff that others are not, which is like one of the main benefits of diversity, whether it's like product development or figuring out a process or, you know, there's so many applications. But if those ideas are not shared, then what ends up happening is those ideas, of course, don't make it into the company culture. But the other side of that is that means that the dominant culture that is not working for everybody, it just continues on because there is no reason to interrupt or disrupt it. So, I deal with that kind of stuff. But if I'm thinking about like a recent client, recently I had somebody reach out to me because their team and what I found really interesting about this was the team had done a lot of DEI trainings and social justice trainings. And so they had this idea like, Oh, I already know the stuff. I know I can talk the talk. So that means I can walk the walk. It's like, but the mouth and the legs are different parts of the body, everybody.

And so what I was asked to do was to help this team to engage across difference. So this team had another population that they were supposed to be serving. And the observation was that individual members of the team were very reluctant to engage with those portions of the population that were not in alignment with their own identity groups. So to make that a little bit less abstract, like there were some team members who were super uncomfortable engaging with the parts of the population that they were serving who identified as like LGBT+ or identified as Asian or Black or as disabled.

And so how I kind of ended up framing it was not even like conflict management, but really helping that team to define the parameters of the relationships that they would be entering into. So that when difference did come up, they already had a plan in place that each had bought into so that they could engage productively.

And if you're wondering why I would have to do all those kind of mental gymnastics well to break off one… And this is also part of why I'm still kind of like figuring it out how all these things, like to kind of weave together, like, let's say that you have a problem, right? And you call a lawyer because you're going to sue that person or that other person is suing you. There's already a fire there, so to speak. Right. And you're paying somebody to put it out? What I do, in terms of conflict management, and this is also why I call it conflict management than, say, resolution, because resolution is not always a guarantee, but conflict management, what you're doing is you're trying to figure out ways that the conditions don't result in a fire to begin with. So rather than being able to charge to put out a fire, what I'm saying is you should pay me so that fires don’t crop up.

But when nothing happens, then people are like, that wasn't worth anything. That's why, you know, I'm not going to pay that much money. It's like but you know. Yeah, that was the goal. And if there is a fire, you got smoke damage, you got property damage. Like dealing with insurance is in it, that like, there's even a saying you know, like, you know, was it a penny for prevention, a pound for care? Yeah. It's like, I don't know. We'll just add that to the long, the big book of things that moms have been saying since the invention of language that children have not been listening to. 

Andrea: Yeah, no. I mean, you hit on so many good points there. And I want to go back to that. One of the ones you made around expectations and silence. And, and I think that it is something that as a DEI career coach, I hear from my clients on a regular basis and what I am trying to help expose. And so I so appreciate your lens even as someone who comes in as a consultant, that that is oftentimes what's happening in organizations. They're hiring their first, their only DEI person. That person comes in amped up, going to do the work, going to solve DEI, and then there's pushback and pushback and like, Hey, we did this thing, can we talk about it? Oh, we don't know if we should communicate about that. And so, like so much of what you focused on, you know, conflict management and everything else, really boils down to communications.

Enrico: Like I said, the core of my practice. Yeah. 

Andrea: Yeah. So I'll talk some more about that because like, I'd love for you to think about like what else in addition to communications, because I don't think that people associate communication as a key DEI leader skill. Why is that such an important skill? And are there other 2 to 3 skills that you're like if you're getting into DEI right up there with communications, like, please, please, please have these skills. 

Enrico: Yeah. I'll try to keep it, like, two skills, you know, just 2 to 3 sentences.

Andrea: I know, because I know you and I could write the book on it. 

Enrico: Maybe we should, actually. But communication is really key, because as a species, we are not mind readers. You know, my, my partner early on when we started dating, she said often and emphatically, I wish that you could just read my mind. And it's like, I kind of wish I could, too. But I also have to recognize, like, we come from different cultures, like we come from different continents. So there are going to be ways that like you are sending a signal that you believe that I will know how to decode and I will sometimes say, Yeah, I know how to decode that. And I get it totally wrong. And that happens even with people of the same culture, like all the time, all the time. So if you look at how, say, good friends communicate with one another, it's not like somebody just says something. The other person understands it perfectly. And like, that's the end. There's often like a little bit of like it might not be this explicit, but it's often like, Wait, are you talking about this thing or the other thing? Oh, sorry. I left out a word there. I'm talking about the other thing, right? So if you take that simple interaction, but then you amp up the complexity, right? You're talking about like, the technical skills you use at work, the different projects that you're using or that you're working on, the differences of education that the different team members have. Those are also different cultures that people have been introduced to. Then a lot of that complexity right means that there's a lot more chances for communication to go wrong or to be incomplete. Right. And then when you add to that, like the human kind of tendency to get really defensive about things, like emotions come into play, right, then you can start to see like how difficult this is becoming like really, really quickly. 

And so just kind of as an aside here, like when I was teaching language, I would sometimes in the later part of that career, I would often be working with mixed classrooms, so people from lots of different cultures. And sometimes there would be frustration because some students would internalize some lessons very easily and then others would kind of have some trouble. And then people were kind of like, Come on, I want to be progressing here. And so and that would happen sometimes I would do an exercise, which is I would have the students teach one another a tongue twister in their native language to give the other a sense of where that student was coming from. Like so often in pronunciation lessons, like, your pronunciation of a target language, like not your own language, is influenced by your first language because that's what your muscles are used to. That's what your brain is used to doing. And so by, you know, actually trying to get somebody to walk into somebody else's shoes, then you can kind of feel like, Oh yeah, the toes are tight here. The heels are slipping a little bit. I understand why are they walking this way. I understand why you're talking this way. I'm starting to understand some of the difficulties that you have to navigate that I do not, right? And so the more that we can kind of create space for us to do that in the course of our work, in our interactions with one another, then the better chance we have of having better relationships. So that's kind of like the why of communication. 

But attending to that, if we're really just trying to stick to a couple of skills, they're directly related to communication. And honestly, one of the most difficult ones for me to have started learning and to continue to practice is emotional regulation. You know, it's like I said, it's really easy when you're frustrated to get angry or when you're not understood or when something that you say is taken in a way that you didn't intend to become defensive. And so a lot of that feeds into patience. You know, so it's easy to tell somebody to be patient, but if you don't have that underlying strata of emotional regulation, then it's, it's for me, it's almost impossible to be patient. And this is not an easy skill to learn. This is something that you're going to have to work on day in and day out. It is one of the primary reasons that people say engage in a therapeutic relationship or in meditation or something. There are so many practices across so many cultures because it is such a big impediment to how we relate to other people. 

And let's see, related to that, I think for DEI folks in particular, and this goes for people who are in internal roles and external roles would be managing up. You know, so communication, emotional regulation, patience, and managing up. Right. And then also, you know, there are other skills, too, but let's leave it there. 

Andrea: No, I love, you know, I've heard some other guests have, you know, mentioned patience. And I think that that is such a good one. But managing up does not get talked about enough. So thank you for that because it is like I get, I get clients who get into roles and they're like, how do I, how do I move this forward? And so it's, the favorite word of DEI, of the DEI Career Center is influence. I think it's like the most popular word. But in your ability to influence, how do you influence up, out, down, sides, all the things and being able to manage up is a key skill that you're not going to learn in a unconscious bias certification. 

Enrico: Nope. Yeah. 

Andrea: So it's the reason why it's so important to think differently about how you're approaching what skills matter when you're interested in getting into the field of DEIB and that ability like it's not necessarily a skill, like you got to put that on your resume, but it is a skill that for you as you're evaluating, is this an option for me to get into? How is your ability to manage up, out, down, side to side? Because that is the work. That is what you're going to be doing so much of. And once you move into a consulting phase, then yeah, you're doing that by however many number of clients that you have at any given time. So thank you for highlighting that. I think it is an incredibly important skill for people to really consider for themselves.

Enrico: Mhm. And you know, I think it's worth saying that sometimes people say like oh well relationships are a skill. Broadly speaking, yeah. And honestly, communication and relationships are at the heart of DEI work, but relationships is really like an umbrella term and a lot of the skills that I was talking about kind of plug into that and it's not really so much like if you approach it like, as with so many things related to DEI, as a checklist, like you're not really going to get anywhere. Like you can't just say like, well, I'm good at managing up now. Like I'm ready to take on the world. Like it's interrelated with all these other things. And it's not going to be clear which of these skills that you have to activate to get the best result. You're often going to be flying a little bit blind. And so another area that relationships comes in is having relationships with other diversity, equity, and inclusion professionals or other practitioners that you are in community in. And if you're kind of like thinking about getting into DEI and saying like, well, I'm not really in community with DEI people, well, you, that doesn't mean that you can't start today, you know. 

What I’ve found is that the community of DEI professionals is perhaps the friendliest and the most welcoming professional community that I have ever had the pleasure of being considered a part of. And part of it is because we want more people to join us in what we're doing, because we know it takes a lot of work. And so, you know, before the show, we were talking about a mutual acquaintance of ours. And Andrea, you were saying like, oh, that person is who I talk to when things are going sideways and we all need a couple people like that.

Andrea: Absolutely. And you know, it's so important. 

Enrico: So important. And again, like I'm saying this, like, that's easy, too. It's not because it can't be. It has to come from a place of authenticity, you know, a real relationship. It's something you invest in. It's something that you, you know, put time and effort into, even when it's not convenient. Maybe especially when it's not convenient. Like if you see your fellow practitioner, like really struggling, like, yeah, you're also investing in yourself too by reaching out, especially when you're really busy and being like, Hey, do we need to set up some time to talk? Like, you know, is everything okay? I just noticed that there is something a little bit off in that last meeting we were in. Yeah, I can make the time, you know. 

Andrea: Yeah, no, I love that you talked about community. It's again, one of the reasons why I created the DEI Career Center, and community is part of what I'm trying to develop through my program. So with the newest program that's just launched, Pivot Your Passion program, it's coaching, it's a course, and it's a community as a chance to connect with other people who are thinking about getting into DEI and several of my clients who have already made the pivot into that world because it is hard. And so with, you know, one of the aspects of that program, I even offer access into my own network because sometimes people are like, how do I, you know, I'm interested in this, I'm interested in that. So like, it's one of the like higher tier services that I do offer, which is I will literally open my network to you, make personal introductions to fellows, because that is, it is something that I would say if someone was like, Andrea, like, what's your purpose? Right? Like we talk a lot about passion in this work, but I ultimately believe that my passion and my greatest gift is my ability to connect people and to share information. And so that is what I am truly, like what drives me in this work is that ability to make those human connections for people and see people thrive. So it's a big part of the business and why we have these conversations as well. So people even just, no like who's doing this work? What should I be looking for? Who do I access? 

Enrico, I have loved this conversation. I know we could talk forever about all of the things, but I love to end this conversation with asking you what is one resource it can be a book, a podcast, a show, whatever it may be that has been really valuable to you that you would recommend for other people who are thinking about getting into diversity, equity, and inclusion as a career. 

Enrico: Yeah. So I'd like to actually recommend the podcast that I run for an organization called DiVerity PBC. The show is called the DEI Is: podcast, and what I've been doing with that is interviewing people who are part of like, the kind of DiVerity extended network and just chatting with them about different issues in diversity, equity, and inclusion. So, you know, like Andrea has said, like, community is something that's super, super important to me. And I really see that as kind of the vehicle that each of us like as individual practitioners or internal DEI folks are going to create a larger lever so that we can accomplish some of these bigger things. So you can find that on Apple Podcasts, Anchor.fm, anywhere that podcasts are. 

Andrea: And we’ll link it below so everyone has access to it and I am a huge fan and I've been watching lots and lots of episodes recently and I've really enjoyed the conversations and the guests because I think you've brought in some guests that maybe aren't necessarily a part of kind of the bubble sometimes of DEI. It's very easy to hear some of the same voices over and over so I really applaud you for thinking about how do we bring even more and more diverse voices, more diversity to the voices that we're showcasing. So I applaud you for that. We'll definitely link that in the comments below and add it to the resources on DEICareer.com where you can find a list of resources for you to access to continue engaging in your learning.

So thank you again for being here with us today. We've absolutely loved having you and all of the wonderful knowledge that you have shared with us. 

Enrico: Thank you so, so much. And, you know, it's always a pleasure to get some time with you. I just want to say to the audience out there, if you haven't come across other practitioners who are similar to Andrea, well, neither have I. And so that's all to say that I love the niche that she is carving out because I think it's so deeply necessary. And frankly, if there was a resource like this when I was starting out, and I'm not even sure how that might have impacted me, but it looks like a really positive thing and I can't wait to see what comes out of the project.

Andrea: Thanks, Enrico. 

Andrea [outro]: I hope you enjoyed this episode of DEI Career Conversations. Don't forget to like subscribe and hit the bell so that, you know, as soon as new episodes are live. Also, if you'd like to learn more about our brand new program called Pivot Your Passion into a DEI career, be sure to check out the links below or visit DEIcareer.com and look at our courses. This new course is so exciting because not only are we going to help support you as a job seeker thinking about pivoting your passion into a career into DEI, but we're also going to make sure that you have the tools and resources you need in order to learn how to create data-informed strategies for DEI. How to create metrics. How to make sure that you know how to do the work of DEI by getting unprecedented insights from DEI professionals who are doing this work day in and day out. So I'm so excited about it. Hope that you'll join us. We have monthly community connection calls for anyone who's a part of the program and you can learn more about it all at DEIcareer.com