Transcript

Andrea: You are fundamentally changing how your organization works and thinks. Can you talk to me a little bit about like, how you all have started to upskill people to be prepared for hiring people with different skill sets?

Jessie: To the point of what are the skills for the future, in my opinion, adaptability and communication as it relates to building relationships, like because at the end of the day, we know that the skills are going to be changing constantly. It's the pace of change is, is is really difficult to wrap our heads around, which is why I think the skill of being adaptable in and of itself is so, is so critical to the future.

Andrea: Welcome to DEI Career Conversations. I'm your host, the DEI Career Coach Andrea G. Tatum. In this special episode, we recorded live with our DEI Career Community in attendance, and I got a chance to sit down with the Global Director, DEI Talent Partner for Walmart, Jessie Spellman. Jessie shared about her own unique journey into working in dei as a white woman. Plus, she shared what a typical day looks like with a focus on relationship building, change management, and helping people move past misconceptions in DEI, especially around the talent lifecycle. Plus, she shares more details about Walmart's recent move towards skill based hiring. Now, be sure to stay tuned to the end, as Jessie shares some thought-provoking advice for anyone thinking about a career in DEI. And don't forget, visit deicareer.com to learn more about our Pivot Your Passion Course, or other coaching services, including Resume and LinkedIn Optimization, and Interview Preparation. Okay, you are in for a treat. So let's get into it.

And so everybody, just give a silent, warm welcome to Jessie and Jessie, welcome. Thank you so much for being here.

Jessie: Thank you, Andrea, thank you for having me. It's great to, great to be here with everyone.

Andrea: Awesome. So Jessie, why don't you tell us a little bit about your own journey into this role. And we'll go from there.

Jessie: I always start at the very beginning. I grew up like most white people in a mostly white community. And I got to college and was pretty pissed off that Martin Luther King didn't fix everything. There was pretty, it was, it was a big, it was a big surprise to me. And I dedicated my career, my academic studies to studying really the history and the context and the sociology and the economics behind why American cities remained so segregated so many decades after the Civil Rights Movement. I've always loved working with young people and working with children. And I decided to channel that energy into the Philadelphia public school system where I taught middle school math for two years. And I always say that I learned two things. Number one, this wasn't the best use of the unearned advantages of my identity. And those are just fancy ways of saying my privileges. And the way that I show up in the world. At a super high level, 100% of my students were black. And 90% of the teachers are white women like me, I wasn't from the neighborhood I taught in, I didn't even live in the neighborhood I taught in. And it didn't really feel authentic for me. The second thing that I learned or that I realized is that I wasn't going to gain the skills that I needed to enact change at the scale that I still believe is possible working within the public school system. And so I made a pretty big career pivot to working in management consulting. I spent one of my summers between my years teaching, studying for, this job interview. And I took and I made that decision very deliberately, because I wanted to learn the skills that made folks successful in business. I wanted to gain the business acumen so that I could frankly gain the credibility to talk about the things that I believe are the most important things related to race and social justice and what I consider to be human rights. I spent about, I spent it, in all about seven years in management consulting, and I got a Master's in business as well during that time. Number one, they paid for it so that made it very easy and that I'm gonna be honest and transparent about all those things. Number one, and number two, again, I can I'm constantly thinking about how I position my skills, they'll give me credibility. And you know, I bet you a lot of us are doing this because it's the right thing to do. And that is true. And I see the world as it is as while I imagine and build the world that I that I want to see in the world as it is really values that business perspective. So I spent my career building that until I met the person who hired me at Walmart, and I took the role that I'm in now. So I made that transition from management consulting into my current role. I know we're gonna get into it in a little bit, But just so that everybody knows, I sit, like most large matrix organizations, we have different centers of excellence within the company. And so I am responsible for all things related to diversity, equity and inclusion within our talent organization. So how do we attract people? How do we select people? How do we promote people? How are people moving around the organization? And how are we doing it in a way that ensures Diversity, Equity and Inclusion at every step.

Andrea: I love it. I love it so much. So with that, I mean, you kind of just started to go into this. So talk to me a little bit about like, what is a typical day? And I know, that's a hard question. Because when you're working in-house, typical kind of flies out the window, as I'm sure you're finding, especially like right now. But if you could imagine typical, what's a typical day in the life in, in the role that you're in, especially for a Global DEI Talent Partner?

Jessie: Yeah, I spend most of my day like many of us in meetings, but the meetings are really identifying the right stakeholders, and the right people who are going to bang the table for the work that we're doing. And so I really consider thoughtfully, the web of, of stakeholders and the web of partners around the business that will help drive action towards any sort of initiative that we're standing up. So my day is really a lot of, I gotta get in touch with this person, I got to get in touch with that person, I have to make sure that this person knows what that person is thinking and then connect each of those people to this other person who's doing this work. And this other part of the business. And so a lot of my job, frankly, is aggregating resources, connecting dots and finding who the right people are to connect to others. And this is frankly, and I would, I'm, I know, we're gonna get into this too, but a lot of us, either as we're looking for roles in this space, or we are in roles in this space, we all know that we're, we're often given an impossible task, we're often given a job that is frankly, not possible to achieve. And the way that I personally go about that is I try to bring as many people along as possible, and I try to spend as much of my time as I can, creating allies, finding partners across the business, and knowing that I can, I am a texter, knowing that I can text them and say, Hey, did you hear about X, Y, and Z, let me connect you to the person that's working on this and we'll get going. And a lot of that is also because I don't have the resources on my team to manage programs. My team is me and one other person. And you heard Andrea, right? It's a global role. So instead of, you know, creating these initiatives in these programs, I consider the work of our team, really as internal advisors, and consultants. Part of that work sometimes requires analysis. Sometimes it requires program design. But ultimately, I spend most of my day in meetings, connecting dots and establishing relationships, because I know that it's those relationships that are going to take the baton for whatever work or guidance we develop or guidance we give, and go ahead and actually implement it into their different business segments. So a lot of meetings and a lot of next steps coming out of meetings is figuring out what's the next meeting and who's the next person I should connect that person to.

Andrea: So you're just managing like you're managing people, you're managing expectations. And the thing you're I heard that I really love I feel so strongly about as you're managing relationships.

Jessie: Yes.

Andrea: This work is nearly impossible to do, unless you are constantly building relationships. And I feel like I say it on like, every single episode like DEI extends so much beyond just like people in DEI title roles. It really takes everybody within that and so when when I think about that, and I heard you say you're like working with a lot of line of business partners and different folks, so in all these meetings, and in all of these conversations, do you find that there's some misconceptions or just people misunderstanding about like, what is DEI? What your job is? And you know how to, how to kind of overcome some of the barriers when it comes to the DEI because obviously, like, if I see DEI and talent, I think like, okay, well, your number one job is to just go and hire some folks. But like, what else do you find like is misunderstood?

Jessie: Oh, man, I'm so excited to answer this. Okay, so let's start with me and my tiny sliver of the universe, which is, who we hire and how we hire. So within my world of who we hire, and how we hire, I am laser-focused on three things. The first is, how do we broaden the talent pool? Talent is everywhere. Opportunity isn't. So how do we broaden the talent pool? That's number one. Number two, how do we enable equitable and inclusive practices and processes to ensure the best talent outcomes? By the way, when I say best, I inherently mean diverse. Because if you hire a bunch of people that all look the same, you haven't found the best of the best. The third thing is driving accountability to those outcomes. So while I might be responsible for the strategy around how to broaden the talent pool, there's the principles and policies and processes around how we get talent in the door. Ultimately, it's the business that's accountable to those outcomes. And that is a critical part of that third thing that I do, which is drive accountability to outcome. So I just talked about all that stuff. And that's just not who we hire.

Andrea: Yeah.

Jessie: But when we think about creating an organization that is more representative of the communities that we serve, it's not just who we hire, it's also who we retain. And it's also who we promote. And those things are measured by what is the makeup of who leaves the organization every year, what is the makeup of who is promoted within the organization every year. And then I already told you all that I'm spending a lot of my time looking at who did we hire into the organization every year, but all of those things really need to work in concert. Because if you're hiring 100 women into your organization every year, but 75 leave every year, you're not doing the best job of building for the future of your organization. So that's the first misconception I think is it's really easy to only focus on who we're bringing in. But we can't lose sight of how important it is, who we're keeping, and who we're promoting. So I think that's the first misconception. 

The second misconception is around the word diverse. So many leaders think that I'm speaking in code for black, that like it's, it's like a keyword or a code word. I was on a call with a leader and we were talking about one of our, one of our stores and one of our communities. And I said, you know, isn't the store like 97% black like we should consider, you know what that means for the community that it's in. And this leader said to me, yes, you're right. It is a very diverse community. And I, and I said, you know, respectfully, no, it is not, it is a very homogenous community, every, the vast majority of people are of one identity. And so there's a huge misconception that diversity somehow is code for one or the other. Another thing I always say is, if I hired a white man on my team that would add diversity to my team, my team is all women. So we have to level set with what we mean by diversity. And what we mean by diversity is variety. There is no such thing as a diverse candidate. Diversity implies variety. And it has to do with the overall makeup of who's at the company, who's coming into the company, who's getting promoted in the company, and who's leaving the company. So that, I know that's a lot. But those are some of the misconceptions, how recruiting, retention and advancement are related. And that when we talk about diversity, we mean it. We mean diversity means everybody. Yeah, one of the things that Walmart has done, you might have seen the news, to begin to start to address some of these issues, particularly around what I talked about at the very beginning, which is talent being everywhere, but opportunity not is transitioning to what we call a skills forward framework for hiring. And really what this is born out of is recognizing that there are multiple pathways to gaining the relevant skills and experiences to excel at a job. If you went to college, that's amazing and an amazing way to learn skills. But maybe you managed a hardware store with over 10,000 skews, and you were able to maintain revenues that grew year over year, but you never went to college. What that counts just as much as any sort of supply chain, master's program or anything that you pursued. And what a skills forward approach does is it recognizes the validity of all pathways to gaining the skills. And very importantly, what this does from a diversity, equity and inclusion perspective, is it acknowledges that only 40% of Americans have a college degree. So if we actually assess people based on skills, we just doubled the number of potential people that can come into our organization. And this has add-on effects because even though 40% of all Americans have a college degree that number declines based on systemic and historical barriers for Black and African American people, for a lot, teenage people, etc. So, in order to and frankly, that's, I would say maybe a third misconception that you need a college degree in order to do a job.

Andrea: Yeah.

Jessie: So that is that is a been a big a big initiative. And it's not just about changing the requirements for the job. It's also about training, our hiring managers and our recruiters to know how do you assess someone based on their skills? How do you look for someone’s skills on their resume? And on the other side of things? How do we do a better job for job seekers in the market to have, to make sure they understand how do you write a resume that highlights the skills that you bring to the table as compared to just your pedigree or your credentials, and I'm using air quotes around the word pedigree. When I'm allowed to say this, because I went to an Ivy League school, I mean, anyone's allowed to say it, because it's just statistically true. But you know, the vast majority of white people like me who go to Ivy League schools have parents who went there. And so you think about the prestige or the pedigree that a lot of these universities have, a lot of it isn't even fact-based and based on a person's experiences or skills that are bringing them there. And so we're coming at this from all ends. But to sort of summarize the misconceptions, it's, hiring is related to promotions is related to retention. That's the first misconception they are all related. The second one is that when we say diverse, we mean heterogeneous, we mean lots of different people that includes every single person. And then third, your skills are the most important thing not your college degree.

Andrea: Oh, you just said so many things. I love it. I love it. But it was all such good stuff. I mean, when I think about it, I mean, I have definitely, I feel like I say it more than a little bit like diverse, like a single person, like you say cannot be diverse. And, you know, one thing I'll say is like, you talked about being in a room with, you know, 97% people being white, and like, while there's racially homogenous, at least on the surface, that's when you start to get them into intersectionality and really starting to unpack like, okay, yes, there's opportunity to increase racial diversity, but right, like that might be community specific. But what are we doing in terms of looking at? Who's LGBTQ? Plus, who's, you know, neurodiverse? Who's coming in with physical disabilities? And how do we create and make sure that we have space for people and are staying ADA compliant? And I know, it's one of the things like I can literally remember as a small kid, going to Walmart and being like, I can really see the opportunities for people working, that maybe aren't granted and other places that I saw people who may be in wheelchairs or people who are signing or people who are older, right, like age discrimination, and age bias is a real thing. And I can remember, you know, seeing greeters, who are older, and I was like, this makes my day like, I loved walking in the door and having that, that, that greeting. And so then it goes to again, what are the skills that you're looking for? And I was so excited to talk to you after I saw, like we were already planning, I was like, Oh, my gosh, I cannot wait to talk about this skills based thing, because I think so many organizations have an opportunity to especially right now, think about what are the most important skills for the future of their organization? And what are those skills? And I would say for folks who are on the job seeker side thinking similarly, like what are the skills that you can be gaining that maybe aren't falling under your typical job title, so that you are skill building for the future as well because the skills that are going to be needed in the future are regardless of DEI, or whatever that is, they're going to keep changing. That's the nature of technology and change and innovation. So how do you stay up to date and whether it's those certificateS, you know, certificates or you know, certifications, or just finding opportunities to learn and get experiences is so important. So I love all the things that you just hit on. And I, oh, man, we could have a full conversation about the misconceptions. But I do really appreciate that you talked about talent, and being a talent partner, and really looking at that full lifecycle be on  just hiring. And I want to highlight that I heard you say like, and I'd love to hear you talk maybe a little bit about what this looks like in your organization, and how you partner with other places in your organization, to think about training and development for people who are hiring. And when you have, this is where change management comes in. You are fundamentally changing how your organization works and thinks, can you talk to me a little bit about how you all have rolled this out communications and started to upskill people to be prepared for hiring people with different skill sets.

Jessie: It's such a to the point of what are the skills for the future, in my opinion, adaptability and communication, as it relates to building relationships, like because at the end of the day, we know that the skills are going to be changing constantly, a lot of folks that are going to get new technical skills and coding at these various boot camps, their their skills, become obsolete almost annually, it's it's the pace of change is, is is really difficult to wrap our heads around, which is why I think the skill of being adaptable in and of itself is so is so critical to the future. And change management. It's basically getting people to change behaviors that is so hard, it is so hard to get people to change behavior. And it requires a really concerted effort that people feel number one, they don't feel like the change is happening to them. They feel like they are a part of the change, they have a say in how it rolls out. And they have a say in what's happening. This is so important for hiring managers in particular, I've been what do you mean, I've been, I'm an operator for for 20 years, I've been hiring people this way. Now you're telling me I have to change the way I'm hiring. So it's really important that it doesn't come across that way as this is something now you have to do we're doing this to you. We really have to be collaborative number one and make sure that people feel like they are bought in to and have a say and have a seat at the table in something that they're ultimately going to be responsible for implementing. So that's so that's really critical. And then related to that is ensuring that you have the right champions at the right levels throughout the organization. It's called in change management lingo, it's often referred to as like a sponsorship spine. So who are the folks throughout every level of your organization that will sponsor this change, and help deliver the messages and drive the behaviors that will contribute to that change, you have to also consider it from all of the different audiences that are going to be impacted by the change. So when I talked about this a little bit. So transitioning to a skills based model for hiring is so much more than a job description, although that's a critical component, impacting the workforce strategist. And the talent architects of the world's two are actually designing what the job descriptions look like and where they fit in the org. But there's also the people that are then going to be taking those job descriptions and making those hires, you also have the people like I mentioned, you are now applying to roles in this new way. 

The change management piece of it really requires you to bring people along at every stage of the journey so that they don't feel like it's happening to them. You have an identified change champions and a sponsorship spine and every level of the organization to help you communicate your message not only top down, not only bottom up, but also from the middle out. And then you also really need to ensure that all of these things are capturing the experience of all of the different groups that are going to be impacted by the change.

Andrea: Oh, I love talking about change management so much. I can geek out on it. And so I would say you know, I recently posted something on LinkedIn. And I was telling people like, especially those of us who are like really passionate about DEI and culture. Spend time listening to what leaders are concerned about. And so that way when you go through a big org change or something massive, you're not just saying saying like, like you just said, it's not happening to them. It's happening so that you are helping them achieve a goal.

Jessie: Yes.

Andrea: Right. Like everybody is saying, like, we need to hire more, we need to hire faster, we need to do this. And so it's like, great. We answer for you.

Jessie: I was I was just about to say thank you for for bringing that full circle, because as it relates to this skills question, it is it is, again, talking about some of the statistics I mentioned earlier, you, you are doubling the number of potentially eligible people to bring into your roles, number one. Number two, there's a ton of research that shows hiring for skills is five times more predictive of success, than your college major, or whether you have a college degree at all. And so really being deliberate data-driven, and making it real for people like what what does it have to do with them? Why, why why should somebody care about this big change that's happening, and also building into the rollout with regards to change management is there's always a there's like a behavior change curve. And if anyone on the call doesn't know, you can look it up and they chart it, but their people are going to resist the change no matter what, how many of us have downloaded the new iPhone update? If you have an iPhone, and you're like, I hate this, it's horrible. And then sue it, right? Like we are, it's a natural human emotion reaction, whenever we have a software update, or any kind of update to be like, oh, this is frustrating. And so you have to build in that time for human frustration. And that learning curve, that's an inherent part of getting people along to where you want them to be.

Andrea: So spot on. So, so spot on, I love that, because that could talk change management all day. And so I mean, it's a skill, it's definitely a good place to upskill regardless of whatever roles or titles that you're looking for, because you see, like, it's just a slightly different conversation. And really, it helps with your ability to understand how to build those relationships, and how you're going to influence people and bring them along. And I love that you mentioned that like those champions, because I always say, right, I get a lot of people who say, You know what, Andrea, I loved everything that you and Jessie talked about, I really think I should get into DEI as a role. But the reality is, what happens if everybody says, like, I'm gonna jump ship and go into DEI or whatever, we need all of those champions, who will help us pilot programs who are willing to take risks within their organization and realize sometimes you have to slow down in order to speed up. And so those people are like, such huge pieces of the puzzle when it comes to actually being able to advocate for real impactful change. So thank you for that. Thank you. 

Okay, so I know, you know, we're just coming up right at at time. And so I really just want to ask you, as somebody who's been in this work, who cares passionately about it, who has done a lot of research and college work and all these things like, now that you've been in this role for a while, and probably I've seen a lot of people coming into it, what is one piece of advice that you would give to somebody who was thinking about getting into DEI?

Jessie: Be kind to yourself, your peace, your rest, your joy, is the real revolution that will topple these broken systems. And you have to be kind to yourself, and you have to keep going. There's a lot of headwinds in oh, gosh, I'm like getting emotional. I was right there with you. Yeah, it's true. There are a lot of, of things going on. And it is really, really overwhelming. But, you know, I believe that this work does not begin or end within the four walls of any of our employers. There are ways that we can continue to push and show up no matter our job title and no matter what. And I don't know if anyone is familiar with Rachel Cargle. She, yeah, she wrote a book recently called suddenly about her manifesto. I'm just gonna read a quick little note from her manifesto really resonates with me. I hold tight to my belief and revolution. Justice is not a passive pursuit but one that's braided into every way I show up in the world. And so my advice, be kind to yourself, show up the best way you can, wherever you are with what you have. And that is that is more that more than enough, most of the time. But really be kind to yourself and keep that fire for that Northstar for what we are fighting for, and bring it up in every meeting in every interaction everywhere you can. And, of course, I acknowledged, again, all the privileges I have. And she talks about that too, in her manifesto holding space for all the advantages and privileges that she brings. But you know, it's easier, of course, for me to be, to be loud about it, because of the way I look. But we all have a role to play, find that piece of the puzzle. Another thing I always say is that, for some people, your piece of the puzzle might be being an amazing spouse, being an amazing caregiver, whether it's to children or to elders, and maybe that is your how you show up in our collective struggle for liberation, and that counts, and, and and be kind to yourself and just keep going.

Andrea: Oh, Jessie. I think that's a perfect note to end on. Thank you so much for the amazing insights that you have shared for your vulnerability, your authenticity. I cannot wait for others to hear and see this. So with that, thank you so much.

Jessie: Thank you, Andrea.

Andrea: Thank you. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the DEI career conversations. Don't forget to like, subscribe and hit the bell so that you know, as soon as new episodes are live. Also, if you'd like to learn more about our brand new program, be sure to check out the links below or visit deicareer.com and look at our courses. This new course is so exciting because not only are we going to help support you as a jobseeker, thinking about pivoting your passion into a career into DEI. But we're also going to make sure that you have the tools and resources you need in order to learn how to create data-informed strategies for DEI, how to create metrics, how to make sure that you know how to do the work of DEI by getting unprecedented insights from DEI professionals who are doing this work day in and day out. So I'm so excited about it. I hope that you'll join us. We have monthly community connection calls for anyone who's a part of the program, and you can learn more about it all at deicareer.com