Transcript:

Andrea G. Tatum: Welcome to DEI Career Conversations. I'm your host, Andrea G. Tatum. On this episode, I got an opportunity to sit down with Leisan Smith. Leisan is a mom, a wife, and a lifelong educator. She was born and raised in Columbus, Ohio, but as you'll hear in this episode, she is a proud Bearcat. She earned her BA, her Master's, and a graduate certificate from the University of Cincinnati.

She's held positions at a charter high school, a pre-college program, nonprofits, public K-12 schools, and at the university level. In January of 2021, she accepted a new position as the first Chief Equity Officer for a private all-girls school. This was such a fun and inspiring conversation. I think anybody who listens to this, regardless of what industry you are in, will have something that they can take away. So I hope you enjoy. Let's get into it!

Thank you so much, Leisan, for joining me on DEI Career Conversations. I am so appreciative to have you here as my guest. I am looking forward to just jumping right into this conversation. Can you start us off by telling us a little bit about your DEI career journey?

Leisan Smith: Wow. Okay. First let me say I'm excited to be here, so thank you for having me.

Andrea G. Tatum: Absolutely.

Leisan Smith: Whenever I think about my journey, I have to go all the way back to undergrad. Now, at the time, I didn't realize I was on my DEI journey, but I'm clear now that I look back. I went to the University of Cincinnati, which is a predominantly white institution. And on our campus, we have the African American Cultural and Resource Center, and that space was my home away from home. I hung out there. I studied. I volunteered. I joined their choir. Eventually, I did a student job there, so I was very involved, really helped to hone in on my leadership skills. But of course, it was focused on supporting Black students, programming for Black students, and I knew that that was a space I could be myself. I could figure out how to support other students. So, I would say it started there.

I returned back to the University of Cincinnati for my Master's. And at that time I was actually a graduate student in the Women's Center. And so I had the opportunity to tap into a different identity in terms of being a woman, specifically being a Black woman. And then at that time, we didn't have an LGBTQ Center, so that's where my coming out journey really accelerated, I would say. And what I realized was that those two experiences were very distinct, and that it tapped into different identities separately—and that did not feel good because my identities are not separate, right? One whole person as a Black woman. And so I kept that thought with me. I wrote about it for my Master's thesis, and I think that that's what propelled me into doing DEI work.

Now, all of my work has been in education, but I do think there's been that underlying DEI part. One of my first jobs was actually for a YWCA in Cincinnati, and I worked with teen moms to help them get their GED. So that was really focused on socioeconomic status and parenting.

I have worked at a charter school. It was a high school. We served students 16 to 21 to help them get their diploma. Mostly students of color in our high school. And then I had the opportunity to go back to the University of Cincinnati again—so I am a diehard Bearcat, in case anyone is wondering—and start our LGBTQ Center. And so I was the inaugural director there and really worked hard to make sure that it was intersectional. I wanted to make sure that students of color—queer students of color, white queer students—felt like that was a space for them. And so my journey has taken me in all different directions, but all based in education, which I'm extremely passionate about.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah. I think that's so cool that you really hit on not only so many of your own intersecting identities, but in thinking about preparing for this work, thinking about socioeconomics, thinking about parental status. And oftentimes when we talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion, we start at race.

Leisan Smith: Right.

Andrea G. Tatum: Well, depending on who you're talking to, let me be honest. Let's be honest. We start at gender, then we can maybe get to race if we wait our turn, and then, LGBTQ comes in right after that, and then it's like, “Okay, yeah, and then we know that there's lots of other identities.” But what I talk about doing the work of diversity, equity, and inclusion, I think it's so important to be able to acknowledge, identify, and grapple with the various struggles, especially when you talk about those intersecting identities and what is it that people need in order to think about creating an equitable society. And so in your preparation, you are really hitting on so many of those differing identities, and so I want to ask you a little bit about what did that look like for you to set up that LGBTQ Center. Is that correct? 

Leisan Smith: Yes.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah. What did that journey look like? What did success look like there?

Leisan Smith: So, one of the great things about returning back to be the person who led this center was that the reason why it happened was because of students. And so students had really pushed and advocated and done their research and talked about why this space was necessary at that time in our Student Affairs Division, because we had a Women's Center, we had the African American Culture and Resource Center, we had an Ethnic Programs and Services. We had all of these different services and centers that were there to support our students, and students said, "This is important, too."

Even though I came in as, of course, the only staff member, having the student voice was extremely important. One of the things that was obvious to me, because most of our Student Life Offices were in one big building, with the exception of our African American Culture and Resource Center, we had all these spaces, and just because a student went into the Women's Center, again, that's not the only identity that they had, right? They might have gone in as a Latinx Catholic woman—and so they needed support for their full identity. And so I would say that the other directors and I really worked hard, even as we built the LGBTQ Center, to make sure that we acknowledged that people had these multiple identities and could show up in these spaces.

Programming and education was really important. I alluded to the fact that we wanted to make sure that queer folks of color could find a space there, and that was actually a lot of work because even though, here I was a Black woman, and the graduate assistant I hired was also a woman of color, we still were not getting students of color in. And we were like, "Why won't they come in?" Well, they had this assumption—because this is what society has shown us—that an LGBTQ space is not for them, right? That's usually for white folks unless it is deemed a space for queer folks of color. And so me getting out on campus to different programs, supporting different student events, building those relationships, not just with staff and faculty, but with students, was extremely important. And when I could walk into the center and see different types of students, of different races, of different grade levels in terms of their college experience, I knew that what we were doing was successful.

We did a lot of what we called Safe Zone Training, the building up of allies and allyship—and we would get a really good turnout. We would have offices requesting us, student organizations, and so I know that that education we provided really did have an impact on making sure that those campus spaces were safer for our students.

Andrea G. Tatum: I think you just hit on something that's so important. I think oftentimes we talk about creating cultures of belonging—and that's a perfect example. Of course people just assume, "You said LGBTQ, you said women, you said..." But then it's going that extra distance to be able to say, "All of your identities are welcome here, and you belong. Bring them on." Because to your point, it can often feel isolating and like, “Okay. Yes, I know it exists.”

Leisan Smith: Right. But it's not my space.

Andrea G. Tatum: It’s not my space.

Leisan Smith: Even as I think about my own journey and being an undergrad and always being in the African American Culture and Resource Center, I don't know if I would have felt comfortable coming out then. And so, as I started talking to specifically our Black students and our students of color, and no one had said that they weren't welcome in those spaces, they just felt like they weren't. And I had really good relationships and friendships with directors of those other centers, and we sat down and we talked, and I said, "Look, we want to make sure that our students feel good in all of our spaces." And so we worked closely together throughout my tenure there, and I think all that could do was make our students' experiences better, so it was really important to us.

Andrea G. Tatum: That's amazing. That is so amazing. I just want to hit on the fact that, what was your title, if you remember exactly, there?

Leisan Smith: Director of the LGBTQ Center.

Andrea G. Tatum: Director of LGBTQ Center?

Leisan Smith: Mm-hmm.

Andrea G. Tatum: It is so interesting because I think a lot of times people get caught up in the titles of diversity, equity, and inclusion work and would miss out on an awesome opportunity like that to make an impact because the title didn't exactly say diversity, equity, and inclusion. And so when I'm working with my aspiring diversity, equity, and inclusion practitioners, one of the things that I really advise them to do is to get clear about what's your goal. Is it impact that you want to make, or is it a title that you want to have? Because if it's impact, you may be able to open your aperture a bit more and think about different opportunities that exist to impact various communities, and it may not look exactly like what someone else does in tech, which is why I was so excited to talk to you about your journey and what you do now because you have a really interesting title, speaking of titles. You are the Chief Equity Officer, and if I understand correctly, the first Chief Equity Officer…

Leisan Smith: Yes.

Andrea G. Tatum: ... at an all-girls school. So can you tell us a little bit about, how did you end up in this role and what does a day in the life of the Chief Equity Officer for an all-girls school? And tell us a little bit about the age, the levels of who attends this school.

Leisan Smith: Okay. So our school actually serves pre-K through 12th grade, which means we have three-year-olds all the way up to probably 18-year-olds, which is an amazing experience. I can go over to our preschool/kindergarten building and have little kids on my legs and telling me sweet things, "I love your earrings. I like your sweater." So it's just a great experience.

I lived in Cincinnati and after I had my daughter, I decided to move back to Columbus. And so I took a job, actually not too far from the school that I'm currently at. It's the public school system in the neighborhood that I work for—work in currently—and it was almost time for my own child to start kindergarten. And so we'd started looking at houses because we wanted to move, knowing that the neighborhood we moved into would be the school district that she would attend. And a lot of people just kept saying, "Have you looked at Columbus School for Girls? Have you looked at Columbus School for Girls?" And I hadn't. I went through public education. My mother was a retired public school teacher. And I finally said to my wife, "Let's just go and look,” and that way, when people ask, we can say, “We looked. Eh, wasn't for us."

And my wife, to be honest, was anti-private school. She's like, "Yeah, this is not going to be our thing." I'm like, “Okay”  So we take this tour. Our tours are led by student ambassadors, so we come out the building and I can still remember, my wife looks at me and she's like, "Oh, did we like that? I think we liked that." And I was like, "I think we did. What just happened?" So now we have to make this decision because the goal was to buy the house and send the child off to kindergarten.

So we went back and forth, back and forth. We ended up going ahead and buying a house and sending my daughter to a great school district. Then I started hearing that they were creating this position and I was like, "Ooh. I remember the tour. This could be another great opportunity for me." So I applied—and clearly I got the job.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yes!

Leisan Smith: So it's been interesting because this is actually not the first job I've had where I've been the first person. So the job I did before this position, well, actually, I was the second person in that job, but my job at UC, I was the first person. My job at the YWCA, I was the first person, started that program. So there's a lot of like, "Let me try to make this up as I go along."

Luckily I had done some specific DEI work that was part of my role in my last position. It was DEIB work, as well as social-emotional learning. And so I had kind of a framework for what that looks like specifically in school districts. The previous one was K-12, but able to shift that.

I would say I spend a lot of time in meetings: meeting with other staff and faculty, meeting with our leadership team. And sometimes that can be a lot, but I do think it's important for a person in this role to be at the table. And sometimes you see that these roles are created, and while that might seem great, they're never in the room when decisions are made. And so it doesn't necessarily have to be a specific DEI conversation, but there's a conversation happening that impacts our students, and so me being a part of that is extremely important.

The other thing I get to do is facilitate trainings, which I absolutely love. I love to engage in conversation with staff and faculty and with our students about this work, about their own journey, about how they show up, about how their own experiences and identities impact them. And then I do get some other student time in helping with some of our affinity groups. So, just depends on the day. We're celebrating children's book week, and so we've been doing that all week. Tomorrow, the entire school goes to the zoo. And so tomorrow, I will be a chaperone, along with other staff and faculty. So it changes day to day, but it's usually pretty exciting.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah. So is there a conversation when you all do something like book, you said book week, right?

Leisan Smith: Mm-hmm.

Andrea G. Tatum: Around who are we? Are we picking certain books? Are we getting diversity in terms of authors, in terms of stories? Is that the type of conversations that you're having around what are the students consuming?

Leisan Smith: So I would say yes and no. I would say no because we have some phenomenal librarians—and so they're already on it.

Andrea G. Tatum: Love it.

Leisan Smith: They have already ensured that the books in our libraries are diverse, that the authors that they spotlight. Now that my daughter is a student there—because she did start there this year—she'll come home and say, "Our author for the month is this person." And I'm like, “Oh, my goodness! That's a Black man or that's a woman of color.” And so I don't have to really be a big part of those types of conversations, but we do have conversations about how do we better integrate diversity into what we're doing.  I think things like Women's History Month, right? All-girls school, Women's History Month, Black History Month. Those things are important, and we don't want it to feel like we're stopping our regular lesson to now focus on this specific thing. And so we're really trying to figure out, how do we do an intentional job of integrating those lessons into just a part of our academics?

Andrea G. Tatum: You just excited me so much with everything you said. I'm going to try to remember because there’s two things you said. One, shout out to all the librarians. I literally woke up in the middle of the night and realized I moved this summer. And I was like, "I'm going to the library on Saturday" because there are so many books I want. I put a reminder in my phone to go to the library. So, shout out to the librarians and shout out to those who participate and make diversity, equity, and inclusion a reality without having to say it. I think that's when this is really beautiful, and to your point, when it's fully integrated. And for those who are listening, I think that this translates regardless of what industry that you are in. You absolutely have to have those champions of diversity, equity, and inclusion who are going to help support this work. You can create a strategy, you can have a vision, and if nobody's on board, it doesn't matter.

Leisan Smith: The buy-in. Yes, the buy-in is so important.

Andrea G. Tatum: And so having people like the librarians who are so well versed into thinking already about it, that's just part of it. This isn't something special or unique. We are going to curate books that represent a diverse group of people that look like our students, that look like maybe students they don't have access to. I love that.

And then you talked about, earlier, you mentioned your affinity groups. So can you talk a little bit.  I'm just not even familiar. Obviously in tech and in corporate, affinity groups, employee networks, are a huge part of diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives, but what does that look like at a school?

Leisan Smith: So at a school, we want to make sure that we are providing the type of support that our students tell us they need. And so we ask the students, "What affinity groups would you be interested in participating in?" And then we try to make that happen. So we have affinity groups at both our middle school level, as well as our upper school level, which is our high school. And so right now in upper school or high school, I believe we have affinity groups based on race and ethnicity, based on sexual orientation and gender identity, and also based on religion. And so we try to make sure that all of those identities and those spaces that our students want, they have access to that.

We also have, again, affinity groups at the middle school—and they also get a say in what that looks like. So I get an opportunity to sit in on our students of color—affinity group for our middle school, which we just met today. So to be in a room full of Black and Brown students is a highlight of my day. And then I believe our high school Black student affinity group meets again next week. And we talk about what they want to talk about. So, I sent the middle schoolers, because middle schoolers can talk. They don't have any problems sharing what they're thinking.

Andrea G. Tatum: Say it again.

Leisan Smith: I'll tell you, anybody that works with middle schoolers, bless you because that is a special group. I love my time with them, but it's not my calling. I'm clear about what I'm good at and maybe need support in. So I sent them a Google form last week, because they're so excited and can talk, I'm like we need to just pick a topic or two and try to stick to that.

So they of course gave feedback, "Here's what we'd like to talk about, Ms. Smith." Okay, great. That's what we're going to talk about.” So we actually spent most of today, which was great timing, talking about the vote for the confirmation for the Supreme Court judge. And so, I mean, just to be able to discuss that with middle schoolers and the parallels between what she had to go through in these different spaces and what they might experience as Black and Brown girls in predominantly White spaces, we just had an amazing conversation. And so, those spaces are important.

Andrea G. Tatum: I got goosebumps just thinking about that because I think there's this idea that, when kids are so young, they're not thinking about things like race or their gender or what's going to come. I started thinking about race at five. That was the first time somebody made it very clear to me that, "Hey, you Black girl, you don't belong up here with the rest of us." I was the only Black girl.

Leisan Smith: Yeah. I asked that question today: “When did you realize you have to be on your best behavior in certain spaces?” And some of them were like, "Oh, yeah, I remember in kindergarten when this thing happened," or, "I remember my mom talking to me when I was in first grade to make sure." They are super smart. They're like, "Yeah, I think I started code-switching in this grade. I realized that I have to show up a certain way." I'm like, “Okay, this is your space and your opportunity to talk about that.” So yeah, they totally get it.

Andrea G. Tatum: And that is so many of our truths that, from that young of an age, we're double processing. We're processing in the moment. We're processing what could happen, what should happen, what they think—and that is a lot. So I love hearing about how you all are creating space for them to deal with that and prepare for that into the future, which is so unique. And so, with that, what are some of the challenges that you face in terms of whether it's with the students or parents or school boards? What are some of the challenges that you face when it comes to trying to do your work day in and day out?

Leisan Smith: It's interesting because even thinking about the affinity groups, we had gotten a little pushback on our affinity groups. I had led a three-part diversity series for parents to provide some parent education, and so our first one was just around the DEIB work that's currently happening across our school. The second one was specific to race, and then the third one was about gender and sexual identity.

And so we were going through, like these are the ways in which we support students. Here's some of the topics that a faculty member might talk about or a school counselor, and parents were like, "Affinity group? What do you mean affinity group?" And we were like, "Well, yeah, we provide these spaces for students.” And there was this whole idea around exclusion, and there was this whole idea around, if we all want to be together, why would we separate? So we definitely had some pushback there.

We have recently revamped our DEIB statement and tried to really articulate who we are as a community and what that means to be a part of our community. We did receive some pushback there. I think we had some folks who felt like, “Does this include me? I'm not sure this aligns with my values.” And so usually what happens is they either reach out to me directly or they reach out to one of the other administrators or our head of schools, which is like our superintendent. And we are of the mindset that we will pull folks in and have a conversation. I have a rule with my supervisor. I'm fine to do that. If the first meeting is really bad, that is probably the first and last meeting. So I think there are people who don't know out of just not knowing. Right?

Andrea G. Tatum: Absolutely.

Leisan Smith: And there are people who are not supportive and will not be supportive of what they think that the work that I'm leading is, and so I have to make decisions. We have to make decisions as a school that if this is who we are, and if this is what's important to us, then we stand in our values. And so for some people, they'll take that learning opportunity or they'll realize, "Oh, I had a misconception about what I thought was happening." And for other people, that won't happen.

I would say our board, though, has been supportive of the work. I have had an opportunity to do some training with them, and they have been very supportive of the work. Most of our parents and staff and faculty and students are supportive of the work, so that's always really helpful.

Andrea G. Tatum: I think I really appreciate that you talked about the alignment to values. It's one thing that, as a consultant as well, with organizations, that I often talk about is that you can't have a diversity statement over here and then have values over here and those two aren't actually aligned. And how you engage with your employees is really only over here in the values. The diversity statement, that's just for external, but like—

Leisan Smith: Right.

Andrea G. Tatum: Then where is this reflected?

Leisan Smith: That doesn't work.

Andrea G. Tatum: It doesn't work! And so I like that that's the journey that I hope more companies and organizations get to. Are your values reflective of what you want to be and who you want to be and bringing that lens of DEIB into it? So, thank you. Thank you for that. I really appreciate it.

Leisan Smith: I think that lens is really important because even when you're making decisions, when you're having conversations, if that lens is not there, then you're making decisions or speaking about things in a way that don't align with that DEIB statement or your values. And so that is a constant thing that we are working on to make sure all of those things are in alignment.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah, yeah. Thinking of that and you were just talking about some of the challenges and the approach with parents, it's in the news day in and day out. We are hearing pushback in different states and cities on things like critical race theory, on things about educating students about sexual orientation. How do you, as a woman with all of these intersecting identities, come into those conversations when you are challenged? How do you fortify yourself and prepare to go into those challenging conversations?

Leisan Smith: Yeah, I would say the last couple of years have been harder than previously engaging in these conversations, and I think a lot of it has to do with what you're talking about in terms of seeing it in the news, and people kind of mobilizing around these ideas that they think are true about what's happening in schools. And so for me, I have to remember who I am and what I stand for and speak from that. And so that may not always be what people want to hear—and I have to be okay with that.

We really try to provide like, "No, these are the facts. This is what's happening. This is what we're doing. These are the conversations that we're having in our school." Luckily, being a private school, we're not as impacted by some of the legislation that's happening. What we're impacted by are folks in the community who may align with that legislation. So now they want to have a meeting, they want to have discussions, they want to know all of the things that we're teaching. I can remember that being a request in the school district I've been in like, "I want the full history curriculum so that I can make sure that—" Okay, this is a bit much.

Yeah, it's a lot, but it's a delicate balance, especially in a private school where families are paying to be there. Right? And so this is my first time experiencing that in this role, and so there's a thin line of like, everything is not for everyone, and I know we need to have students in our school, and so those are conversations that we have a lot, especially as a leadership team, to think about what that looks like.

But I'm thinking about something you said earlier about how, if you're interested in or passionate about DEI work, how the title may not be the thing that you need and been wondering about my own journey in terms of, down the road, could there be something different that I do that's not necessarily like a Chief Equity Officer or a specific DEI role, but I will forever have that lens, right? And so that work will still be connected, and wondering in terms of my own self-preservation, whether or not that could be a good decision.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah. I mean, self-preservation is it. Self-care, self-preservation. When you're in this work, I mean, I think I've probably talked about this on every single episode that I've done, but I'm glad that you acknowledge that because that is the reality. And I know people come into DEI roles and come out of them, and oftentimes it's because it's so, so very challenging, and you have to prioritize your own mental health, your own well-being. And sometimes, organizations, no matter how much they say, "This is what we want to do," you're oftentimes alone in terms of the fight. You're the face, you're the voice, and you're the one they come to, and that can wear on you.

So how do you, given that you are in this role, and we're going to keep you in it as long as possible because it sounds like you are doing amazing work there, how do you take care of yourself? What does self-care look like for you?

Leisan Smith: That's a great question. I'm sure I could do better. 

Andrea G. Tatum: Can't we all?

Leisan Smith: Yes. I would say my daughter, who is seven, causes me to pause and she's like, "Mom, look at the sky. Aren't the clouds beautiful?" Right? Or, "Mom, can we go for a walk?" And so doing things with her, like okay, I need to disconnect from work and focus on being a mother.

I love music, so we often have music playing in the house. I love reading too, which I haven't been able to really do for pleasure. I'm in the middle of a graduate certificate program, and I'm like, “All I ever get to read is academic stuff.” And the highlight probably is my Zumba, which I love and have been taking for years and finally got right, there's a great Zumba move. Someone knows Zumba, finally got certified to teach, although I've not taught a full class yet. I have Zumba mentors who let me pop up and teach a dance here or there, but I love it. I love the music. I love the moving, the dancing, the energy. And so I try to get to a class whenever I can.

Andrea G. Tatum: I am 100% right there with you. It is my jam. I love Zumba. I love dancing. I love what the music does to my spirit, and I can get out of my head for a little bit for that one hour. And so yes, for those of you who do not know, yes, I was a certified Zumba instructor. I taught for many years. I had a private studio where I taught, and taught at gyms and all of these things, and I loved it.

What I found out about myself, here's what was really funny, right? Even in teaching Zumba, how does that apply to your day in and day out? I learned a lot about myself. I talk a lot of times about transferable skills, and so teaching a Zumba class may not seem like the most transferable skillset, but if you can really think about what I had to do, the practice, the learning, the educating, and also learning about different cultures, because even in Zumba, the dance moves aren't just a step here and a step there. You're actually getting to learn about Colombian music and like that beat and that spirit.

Leisan Smith: Right, and the specific rhythms. Yes.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yes, yes. And so what's the difference between a Salsa and a Chacha, and you get to say, "Let me also learn the culture and learn a little bit."

So if you all haven't figured this out, like I'm always saying, take every single opportunity in life to learn. Be a forever learner. I call myself a collector of skills because Lord knows I feel like I've done every job. I also have been a teacher. Basically in college, I decided I really wanted to graduate early, and so I was a substitute teacher-

Leisan Smith: Yeah, same here.

Andrea G. Tatum: ... and I could spend time in the classroom figuring out that I did not want to be a real teacher, but I digress. So speaking of teaching and speaking of kids, so going back to what you do, when you look at your students, when you look at your daughter, and you think about their future, if I said, in looking at them, what do you think the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion looks like?

Leisan Smith: You know, I think it looks bright. The student advocacy we have seen, specifically over the last three, four years, and students saying, "This is not the type of world I want to live in." I think the future is bright. And I think it is part of our job, especially as DEI leaders, not to always teach them about diversity and inclusion, but to help them tap into the skills to be able to speak up for who they are and the kind of world they want to create.

And I get to witness that. Being at an all-girls school, specifically, we are all about empowering our students to use their voice, and that ties directly into this diversity, equity, and inclusion work. And so even when students come to me and they're like, "This thing has happened." I'm like, "There's a couple ways we can do this. You can have a conversation. I can support you in having a conversation." My first go-to is not, "Let me go and talk to so-and-so."

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah.

Leisan Smith: No. I want them to develop the skills because we don't know what roles they're going to end up in, but that skillset is so important. So, I think it's bright. I think we have to keep doing our job though, because there are those times where that educational component is needed. "Let me tell you why we don't say that. Let me tell you why we don't do this or there's some bias playing out." We still need to have those conversations. But when I look at my seven-year-old and her friends and how outspoken they are, sometimes it's hard especially when it's happening in my house. But overall, I just think I can't wait to see what they're going to do and what they're going to impact because I know that they're going to do great things and have a great impact.

Andrea G. Tatum: Oh, that excites me. I think that's what I needed to hear because it can feel daunting to wonder like, where are we going? What's going to be the endgame here? And I don't think that there is a direct endgame in my lifetime or yours where this isn't going to be a relevant conversation, but it's so exciting to see that shift because I don't think I was talking about bias...

Leisan Smith: I wasn't.

Andrea G. Tatum: ... at 12, 13 years old.

Leisan Smith: No. I wasn't talking about, right, code-switching. That's not language that I had.

Andrea G. Tatum: No. I could tell you that I could speak differently, as someone who grew up with a lot of privilege. Just to be frank, I grew up with a lot of privilege, and I went to predominantly white schools for the earliest part of my life, but I grew up in all-Black churches. And the Andrea who showed up at the all-Black church had to also figure out, am I Black enough when I'm at all-Black school, and am I adjusting enough and not showing that and bringing it to school? That kind of code-switching, like you said, very early on, but I didn't have the words for it. I didn't have the vocabulary. So, it's exciting to hear that there's this generation coming behind us who, they're coming in. We're working with a lot of people who are at DEI 101 as adults.

Leisan Smith: As adults! Right.

Andrea G. Tatum: As adults. So, it's very exciting to be like, "Great. There's going to be a generation who we don't have to 101 them." They're going to come in, and I think we're already starting to see that move into the workforce, little by little, and so that's exciting.

Oh, this has been such an inspiring and just great conversation. I'm so appreciative of your time and all the great nuggets that you've shared with us. And so I love to end every episode on a light note. I love talking about musicals and theater, and I cannot wait to get back into all of those spaces in a post-COVID world. And so my question for you is, if there was a musical or a biopic about your life, one, who would play you, and two, what would it be called?

Leisan Smith: Okay. I know who would play me. Like, oh, yes, Queen Latifah. Love her.

Andrea G. Tatum: Oh, yes!

Leisan Smith: She would play me. She sings. She acts. It would be amazing. I've been singing since I was little. I, too, love musicals. We just took my daughter to see a version of The Wiz, Jr. this past weekend back in Cincinnati at the Cincinnati Children's Theater—and it was amazing.

Andrea G. Tatum: So good.

Leisan Smith: So thinking about that, because The Wiz and The Wizard of Oz are my favorites, and thinking about how much I love Christmas—I love it—especially now as a mom. And I think you had said when we talked before something about Lifetime movies and I'm all over Hallmark holiday movies.

Andrea G. Tatum: Okay. 

Leisan Smith: And so I think it would be called “There's No Place like Christmas,” because it would pull in The Wiz, Wizard of Oz, and my favorite holiday. So, there we go.

Andrea G. Tatum: That is so good. That's going to be so much fun. I get to play that out in my head a little bit now. I'm like, I can see this for you. So, thank you again for sharing with us. I'm really excited for folks to get to tune into this episode, and have a great rest of your day.

Leisan Smith: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Andrea G. Tatum: I hope you all enjoyed this episode of DEI Career Conversation. My goal is to help create more transparency about what it really means to work in diversity, equity, and inclusion while helping experienced professionals gain clarity about how their passion, skills, and experience can make a real impact. To learn more, visit deicareer.com. Don't forget, subscribe to this channel, like the video, and share it with your friends. We'll see you next time.