Transcript

Michael: What's been hardest? Throughout these last two years because I've only been out for about two years, is, just learning a new, different landscape. We have to talk in a different way. You have to navigate that world in a different way. That's been really the hardest part. Otherwise, Skills and my prior knowledge has honestly been a walk in the park. But I love where I'm at and I love the work that I do.

It's very rewarding and it's, Change Management is at the core of this work and it's really inspiring just to see how you came into an organization and then where it's at now. 

Andrea: Welcome to DEI Career Conversations. I'm your host and DEI career coach Andrea G. Tatum. In this episode, I spoke with Michael Gamez. He's the manager of Equity, Inclusion and Diversity for VCA Animal Hospitals.

And yes, that's why our pups are featured on this episode cover. He's a former educator turned corporate professional and he spent many years working in college and university spaces, supporting student academic success and leadership development. I'm going to let him tell you all about his own unique path into the world of diversity, equity and inclusion. And be sure to stay tuned in all the way to the end.

He shared insights about the work that he's doing, overseeing employee resource groups, and talks about some of the unique challenges. He's got so many people within your organization who don't actually work within society or corporate offices. 

Don't forget, if you want to learn more about DEI career coaching, whether it's one on one, group coaching, resumé support or mock interviews, go to DEIcareer.com to learn more about the services. 

All right, let's get into it. I am so excited to have you here. Welcome to DEI Career conversations.

Michael: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here and I am so honored to share this space with you and just to have a conversation and to share a bit about myself with your audience. So thank you again.

Andrea: Thank you. So why don't we get right into it? I'd love to hear a little bit about your journey from higher ed to what you're doing now at VCA. 

Michael: Yeah, I would say it's definitely not a traditional path, but what is a traditional path, right? I started off my professional career working in higher education as an academic advisor, so my passion has always been for helping others.

In my undergraduate experience, there wasn't a lot of people that looked like me and identified similarly to my life experiences. So I think some of us who are in this work, we want to give that to others or we want to create spaces where people can feel seen and feel heard and feel like they belong, right? A lot of my life experience has really influenced my passion for helping others.

So I was working with students on their academic success planning for about three years at a private institution. It was a predominantly white institution, so there are few students who look like me, but that's kind of what motivated me and I enjoyed it. It was really rewarding to see someone get from point A to point B and help them achieve that next step, whether it was a career navigation or pursuing education further for a professional degree.

But I wanted to go a little bit deeper, and I've always had a passion for leadership. I was involved in undergrad with various clubs and organizations volunteering, so I wanted to also revisit that part of myself in a professional context. So that's what led me to pursue a career as an advisor to student organizations. And that's actually what really started my interest in the world of diversity, equity and inclusion from a corporate standpoint.

I had a lot of interactions with student organizations that were on campus to provide different experiences for the students, whether it was career development, networking or just from a social standpoint, just creating community and conversation. So I was thinking about that and I learned a little bit more about how different organizations have employed resource groups. And I was like, Huh, It's very similar. They do a lot of the same things and they exist to provide a lot of the same opportunities. It's just two different audiences, essentially. 

So I started thinking about it a little bit, and one of the things that I did in my role is I helped to develop a social justice toolkit for student leaders. So the purpose of that toolkit was to really support dialogue around current events and historically what the landscape of racism has looked like in the U.S., how it's steeped into present day and how it still manifests itself and other barriers, obstacles and challenges that students and professionals still encounter today.

So I created that and I was really passionate about it because one of the things that I always told my students is, “Hey, it's great to provide these spaces and it's great to support the development of others, but also how are you dismantling, you know, the different systems of oppression that exist and harass your group contributing towards that?”

So I really enjoy talking about these types of topics with everyone, but specifically with students. It just helps them open their minds to a different viewpoint. So I love that work. It was very rewarding work, but I have bills to pay, I have trips to take. I have a three year old at the time, he was two, had a two year old French bulldog to provide for, a wedding to plan, and education just wasn't cutting it.

So that's what prompted that's one of the reasons why I was prompted to pursue another career field, which led me to the corporate space. And at that time there was actually a large trend of educators. This was back in 2020, 2021. So there was a large trend of educators actually moving to the corporate sector and springing their skills to support a whole new population base.

So that's essentially what I did and my journey into my role is not very common. If I'm being frank, I, I kind of was just looking for an exit and I did want DEI, but I noticed it was either like six years plus of HR experience and eight years of DEI experience. And in my head I was like, has DEI really been around that long? In that context, have those roles existed for that long across the board? So I was running into those loopholes and it was hard for me to meet that minimum while I had the knowledge and I have the theory behind diversity, equity and inclusion locked and loaded. Some of those more practical skills, being in those spaces for X amount of years.

That's kind of where I fell short. So I just met the right person at the right time. I was like, Hey, I saw you have an opening for a Talent Acquisition Coordinator role, right? So I was like, It sounds interesting to me and I have a lot of experience and coordination. I have a lot of experience with managing stakeholders.

So I was like, I can do this job. Well, funny enough, she called me back, the recruiter, because I talked a lot about my passion for DEI and she was like, you're going to be bored if I'm being honest. So if there's any recruiters listening. For me, that was an exceptional move from that recruiter because that changed my life.

Because at one call I was like, yeah, okay, right. And then she said, let me connect you with our director of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. At the time, the director reached out to me and one thing led to another, and that's where I landed my first role. So that's why I say untraditional. And it was meant to be, obviously, but that's kind of where I am, where I landed to where I am today.

So I had the honor of supporting the development of various diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives for Mars Veterinary Health, which is a parent organization of Mars Inc. And I had a lot of great learning experiences in that role, from stakeholder management to change management to just the essential skills for getting by in road mapping. I learned a lot. And that's what led me to my current role as a manager for diversity, equity and inclusion.

We call it equity, inclusion and diversity. Everyone has their own way of ordering the letters, but we all do the same work at the end of the day. That's what led me to my current role, where I'm really involved with the development and sustainability of our employee resource groups, developing our own equity inclusion and diversity strategy, and serving as a liaison to the community.

So I do a little bit of everything. I kind of also consider myself like a community engagement professional as well, but that's kind of how I landed where I'm at now. And honestly, it's been a really easy transition. What's been hardest throughout these last two years, because I've only been out for about two years, is just learning a new, different landscape.

You have to talk in a different way. You have to navigate that world in a different way. That's been really the hardest part. Otherwise, skills and my prior knowledge has honestly been a walk in the park. But I love where I'm at and I love the work that I do. It's very rewarding and it's, Change Management is at the core of this work and it's really inspiring just to see how you came into an organization and then where it's at now.

My biggest philosophy is to leave something better than how you inherited it. So that's kind of how I do anything in my, in any prior role. I try and leave it better off than it was given to me. I have no plans of leaving this role now. I love it. That's kind of always my mindset. It's like, let me make sure that they're in a better position than where they were then when they were when I got here.

Andrea: I love that one. I think it is so encouraging that you just kind of talked about like hearing someone see you and really hear you out about what you are passionate about. But also were able to identify those key skills that you brought to the table and how they would add value to their organization. So I think that's so critical that you are able to communicate that even though you had a different background than maybe what they thought they needed, that you were able to say like, no, this is this is the skill, this is what I can do. This is where I've already excelled and see those similarities. And that's what I focus on a lot as like, a career coach is one. I also heard you say, like financially speaking, you know, the bull dog, the family getting married, all of those things. When I think about like your career, it's in order to kind of have that life you want to live. And so I talk a lot about like, what's your life vision? What is your job going to allow you to do? And that's when it can be the most fulfilling is when you feel like there's that that not balance of like, no, it's maybe not working hard, but balance of like, yes, I feel like I'm being able to be compensated for that work that I'm doing and that can be hard to get to that point.

Like that's not always out the gate. And so it's really a good feeling when you feel like that, that you're getting rewarded and seen for the work that you know that you can do. 

Michael: Absolutely. You hit the nail on the head.

Andrea: So I want to talk a little bit about, you know, kind of the work that you're doing now and kind of what you saw in higher ed and kind of maybe like what would you say in terms of comparison? Because I think a lot of people, when they think about DEI, would say, you know, DEI in higher ed especially has really actually kind of been around for quite some time. What would you say in terms of the differences, either in terms of maturity or speed of work that you've noticed between working between those two entities? 

Michael: Yeah, I would say in the higher ed context, like DEI frameworks are a lot more interwoven into just different parts of that specific institution or institutions in general. It’s integrated and the way academics are pursued, it's integrated in student life.

So it's a lot more present in those different aspects. Whereas when I came into my role and the corporate context, I feel like that's kind of where a lot of organizations are. They're in the process of making it a part of every specific functional area or okay, you know, they have adopted the mindset, they've adopted the behaviors, and now it's about maintaining.

So I would say higher ed has done a, is a lot more ahead in terms of making it just an everyday thing. And they also established a lot of the framework for what we all know today, as DEI practitioners, when it comes to certain theories, when it comes to just new and insightful information around DEI. I feel like it's higher ed and educational institutions that are leading a lot of the work. So it's ironic because I feel like I still look to higher ed for some of those grounding theories, theoretical frameworks, best practices. One thing that is different between higher ed and a corporate setting is there's a lot more structure around the presence of DEI. I think a lot of organizations are moving in that direction where you have to have somebody in the room at all times, like a Chief DEI officer who's speaking up on behalf of issues that are impacted by DEI, are bringing that lens and mindset to the workplace.

And same thing for higher ed institutions. They usually will traditionally have the chief DEI officer and director of DEI and they'll have a whole team to help really administer the work that they're doing, whether it's training, working with specific organizational functions to help them with their own DEI maturity. So in some cases I would say it's also more built out in higher ed.

And I think a lot of organizations are doing the work to have the representation across the playing field. But I would say it's not something that is consistent. So whereas in the higher ed setting, more often than not you'll find somebody in that DEI role at most, if not every institution. Now on the other hand, in higher ed, sometimes it'll be dual, it'll be split, so that person will be doing this and this. So you also sometimes may find that there's not one person doing just one aspect of the job. It's usually tied with something else. And we do see that in the corporate setting too. I would say one thing I'm proud of for the organization I work for is that we do have a dedicated DEI team. It's a team of two, but it's a start and that's where I always tell folks who are kind of that are a bit apprehensive when they see that the team is small. I always remind them that, hey, you don't know necessarily where they're at in their DEI journey. It could have been a battle to get these two. And that's one other thing too, is in higher ed, we're supporting a very diverse student population base, right?

So we understand that there are different experiences that they're bringing to the table that are going to impact their academic trajectory. So we have to lead with that DEI mindset when it comes to retention, when it comes to just moving through, you know, their educational journey, like we have to make sure that we're providing them with experiences, to make sure that they belong, to make sure that they can contribute, and to also provide them with, you know, those other experiences that maybe they didn't get growing up. Maybe they weren't exposed to a household that had, you know, both parents or both caregivers had degrees or had, you know, other professional degrees or were able to connect them with, you know, internship opportunities or things like that. So we always think like that. And I feel like in the corporate context, sometimes it's not as a parent to us.

So that's one thing too, is you really have to zoom out a bit and remind your constituents, like, here's where are some of the experiences our employee base might be bringing or here's what the data is telling us. Like we're noticing there's not a lot of, you know, promotion of X ethnicity or X race. So what can we do to address that?

So I would say another big difference where higher ed maybe leads is that that mindset is present consistently and in the corporate context we kind of have to remind folks that we're not all the same. And just because we're all doing good, it doesn't mean that, you know, there still isn't work to be done. I think one thing that I;m turning this into a piece of advice, but it's on my mind is if an organization is doing great things, is doing good and you align with that, I think that's great.

It's great to be proud of the accomplishments that your organization has achieved, but don't get lost in that and don't tie that to your identity. That's one thing that I've learned too, is just like I can be proud of where we've come in, where we're going. But I can still acknowledge that there's work to be done and still, you know, I still feel a sense of pride.

But I think sometimes I've noticed that we get lost and that identity of wanting to, you know, be proud of what our organizations have done. And we feel a tide and a sense of a feeling of gratitude for that. But it's also important to remember what we still have left to do. So that was on my mind that came up. So I wanted to make sure I shared that. 

Andrea: Oh, I appreciate that. I think that's some wonderful insight. I love how you're thinking about that. I heard you mentioned something specific about kind of like maturity within an organization. And I know you've been with your current organization for a little, little while, but fairly new ish still.

So what would you say in terms of like what is something that you're really proud of that you feel like has truly moved the needle in terms of taking your organization to that next level in terms of DEI maturity? And for anybody who's not familiar, you know, it's something I talk a lot about in my courses and with my clients.

It's just kind of being able to say like, where is this company in their journey? Are they just getting started? Are they super, super focused on compliance or have they kind of moved up? And I always say with DEI immaturity, like there may be some areas where like, oh, we're getting we're nailing it, and there are some areas where like you're still at that like infantile state.

So why would you say, like you're really proud of some of the work that maybe you all have done at VCA to to move the needle in terms of your maturity? 

Michael: Yeah, I think the thing I'm most proud of right now is engaging in an awareness campaign to reestablish our presence. When DEI was first introduced to the organization, everybody was excited. We had ERGs, we call them diversity resource groups, so we had those groups launching, but it was so quick and this is kind of the historical context that I've inherited. And so one thing I'm proud of is reestablishing that baseline: here's who we are, here's what we can offer and here's how we can support you. We have a population base of just at 30,000.

We are unique makeup because we include support and like hybrid associates that are kind of helping everyone else. And everybody else is the folks in the hospitals that are taking care of pets, that are responding to, you know, emergency situations that are just helping to make sure that your pet is healthy. So we enable them to do that work.

So it's not it's not very easy to make sure that everybody gets the same information at the same time together. So this campaign that we've developed is a attempt to make sure that we can reestablish that baseline with our leadership, who are the ones that are working with hospital teams to make sure that they're providing the best care and that their employees are bringing their best selves to work and that they're able to ultimately, you know, provide the best care for your pet.

So that's something that I'm proud of because when we look at maturity, I think we can check a lot of boxes. We can say that we've done this, we have these sponsorships. But when it comes to ensuring that everybody understands why we exist and what it is that our equity inclusion and diversity team sets out to do, that's something that I got a lot of questions about from day one, and I'm actually glad that people were asking me because that showed me that they were interested. But one thing in this work is you have to really pick up on some of those key themes. So if you're getting a lot of questions about something, chances are how many needs to have some happiness, some work probably needs to be done in addressing that and bringing more awareness to that specific issue question, whatever it might be.

So I'm really proud of this campaign because we've developed a toolkit, we've developed a set of info sessions for our different constituents to learn from their peers who are leaders in the field. And when I say field I mean in the hospital and who are leaders directly in the hospitals and who are leaders in the support area to kind of share their perspective of how they bring DEI to life.

And one thing I thought when I came into this work is, okay, I'm going to hit the ground running. I'm going to work with all of our diverse resource groups and help them plan their initiatives for the year. I'm going to connect, you know, our sponsor, our sponsoring organizations with our DRG to engage with the community more, to work on these pipeline programs to address the diversity issue within various roles in veterinary medicine.

But I found that in order to do that work, I got to make sure everybody else understands what I'm doing and understands what it is that we do to support the organization. So I'm very proud of that because it is a big undertaking. It's a lot of socializing and it's a lot of working with different constituents to kind of let them know this is why we're engaging in this work.

So I'm proud of that because it's it's it's like I said, it's a big undertaking. When you're working with a big organization like that, you really have to be mindful in your approach. You have to be thoughtful. You can't just have a great idea and run with it. You have to have a great idea, but you have to add structure to it and you have to make sure that, you know, okay, if I'm in this role or if I'm supporting the organization in this capacity, here's how it's going to connect to them and here's how it's going to connect to this person.

And here's how you know HRs are going to see this. Here's how legal's going to see this. So you really, really have to take a step back and really zoom out. I think that's one of my superpowers. This is zooming out. I mean, I can focus sometimes when I need to, but I'm really proud of that and I'm looking forward to the results.

My biggest kind of metric that I'm looking for is just that people walk in with more knowledge, people walk out with more knowledge and they walked in with and that they feel confident in sharing these resources with their teams and developing a plan to bring this to life. And on that note, another thing that we've really been focused on this year, because we are an organization made up of a lot of service, you know, service workers that are providing a service to a specific person is making sure that we focus on dialogue.

They're going to have a team meetings weekly, right? So you have to be mindful of the behaviors that they consistently engage in. So you get to meet them where they're at. So one another thing, another initiative that has come out of this is developing Huddle cards, where they can kind of have conversations about diversity, equity and inclusion. But from a very structured approach.

Week one, let's get to know each other again. What makes us unique? What are some things that, you know, we grew up with? Like what was a food that we grew up eating a lot? Why is it important to us moving on to diving into what the D and the E and the I means and then how can we use those to create an environment of belonging? What's going to be our next action to ensure that folks belong when they get here? And then week three, wrapping it all up, what are we going to do consistently to recognize DEI in the workplace? Is it going to be to adopt the DEI calendar and recognize different cultural and heritage, months or weeks, days that maybe we're not familiar with? Or if we have a big associate population in our hospital that identifies as Hispanic or Latino, for example, what can we do more to bring more visibility and knowledge around the Latino community? Can we bring in a local business to provide it food and just learn more about that business and learn more about our employees? So really just meeting them where they're at in that context. And I'm proud of that too, because it speaks directly to our audience. It's going to be something that they're familiar with. I think that's another thing with this work is you have to, I struggle with the phrase meet them where they're at sometimes because you got to push people a little bit sometimes to like you can't always just be like, you can't always be like, okay, you stay here like you can.

You can acknowledge that this is where they're at, but you got to push them a little bit, but you gotta do it in a way that I believe resonates with them. I think that's and building that trust is very integral to DEI work. So that's how we see our our role as building trust, our roles as building trust is to identify what are some behaviors that are going to resonate with them.

So let's look at the team meeting that they at that they engage in frequently. So I just explained my whole campaign to you. I'm very proud of it. And I think it's again, I think it's something that every future current DEI professional, I think we all can relate to that idea of sometimes we enter an organization and it's not necessarily at the place where we thought it might be, but that's okay.

I think it just provides opportunity. So with, with every gap, there's always opportunity. And that's how I always look at it too, is again, I'm gonna leave you  all better than where you were. So yeah, that's, that's kind of how I that's how I lead with that mindset. Even even now like this, this is a current way of how I really adopt that and put that mindset to practice.

And this, this whole these, all of these efforts are really out to build trust and to build recognition and by doing so and will enable us to do the work that we really set out to do. So 2024, I know, is going to be a very impactful year. I call it the Year of Action. This is the year of rebuilding and the next year is the Year of Action.

Andrea: Oh, I love that. Yes, like you hit it right there like that, that rebuilding our everything I heard you say was really about creating a more stable foundation for the work that you want to build on. And I really appreciate the transparency that you gave is because I think a lot of the DEI, especially folks who kind of are in this these program management roles, you're really overseeing ERGs or overseeing a very specific program that you're like, great, I've got a list of things that I want to do and I'm going to jump right in.

But again, depending on where that organization is, have they recently experienced rapid growth? Have they experienced rifts where they're laying off people? All of the other things happening within that organization may impact what you're able to accomplish right away. And, you know, and so I always say over and over and over again, like those first few days or, you know, I say for a few days, those first 30, 60, 90 days are listening.

And that's what I heard you say. You really just took that time to listen to what they need, find  what are the touch points? And so thinking about the touch point, especially in such a large organization where it's really disparate in terms of where people are and how they are moving. Right. So if you think about other industries that are similar to retail industry, construction industry, where you've got people, yes, who are sitting in a corporate office, but then you've got tons and tons of people in like a distribution center and the retail location. So with you all, with the VCA, it's, you know, people who are physically taking care of our sweet little pups. And like, I know we're both, you know, pup parents and it matters. And you want those people to be great caretakers. You've got the people who are doing the intake. You've got the people who are kind of like you said, in between. And so when you've got that many levels and layers, it's, it complicates it. It makes it that much more important as to when you say meet them where they're at, realize, okay, I'm having this conversation for this audience for what their needs are, because their needs may look different.

If you've got somebody whose job is to take care of the pups and they're, you know, in that hospital capacity, they're not sitting in front of a computer all day. So how do you, how do you think about that? And like, how do you between, because I know you've got a DEI leader in your organization. Yeah. So how do you all kind of split those responsibilities between you and how do you think about those touchpoints of access also for folks who maybe aren't in a typical corporate role?

Michael: Yeah, yeah. I would say I'm kind of more focused on internal activation and kind of supporting internal engagement, whereas my director really focuses on building the relationships with our leadership that enables us to be able to do this work by making sure that leaders understand, like, hey, like here are some ways that you can really support your team and lift your team up a bit more. Here's how we can help and here's what we have that's available to you. So it's really about socializing and honestly, just relationship building. And that's something that we've really intentionally split like our work in. Like that's something that she is very mindful of because she is a former veterinarian turned, you know, corporate professional. So she has that experience. And so leverage we need to leverage that. And that's something that we established early on is you're going to have a lot more success with building those relationships because you get it. You understand what it's like to be on the floor and having to see, you know, 18 to 21 pets a day and make that meet that quota right? So you can empathize with them and you can also share what you've done in your previous roles that have enabled you to support, to better support your teams. So we've distinguished that early on. So while she's doing that, I'm kind of maintaining our EI&D presence with through it, through the employee engagement lens, making sure that we're providing opportunities for dialogue learning throughout all of our different tentpole events, throughout the year, making sure that our comms is locked down, making sure that people know when things are happening.

So I really pride myself in having a, having a great relationship with our communications team. I've really nurtured that this year. So that's kind of a difference between the two of us and we trust each other. And that's one thing that I love about this work in my role is that trust was established right off the bat and it's allowed us to get to where we are now and I would say those touch points is tricky because, you know, we're not going to necessarily encourage someone to get pulled off the floor for a one hour dialogue, right?

Granted, I know it's going to be important. It's going to add value and it's gonna enhance their learning at the end of the day. So what we really rely on is making sure that we are communicating with our leadership teams that are overseeing our hospital teams, that they know what is coming up, that they know what's what to expect for just the different months, days, weeks that we honor and recognize throughout the year.

So that's something that we've really identified as our biggest touchpoint. And when it comes to our staff that don't necessarily have the time, like our veterinary assistants or veterinary technicians or veterinarians, we make sure that we're consistent in creating digital communities where they can still be a part of something, right? Like feel like they're a part of that specific community and that they can access everything that we've had for that year and in the past.

So that way they can still feel like they participated. And that's one thing that I've really focused on this year too, is building those virtual communities. We don't have a fancy engagement platform if you're a Microsoft user, you might be familiar with Yammer, Viva Engage. We really rely on that to create spaces for our diversity resource groups to bring the social benefit of being a part of a group, but bring it to that platform because again, you know, not everyone's going to make the membership meetings. We're not all in-person, we're not all going to be able to congregate together. So that's one thing that I have also focused on in my role is establishing those digital spaces for folks to join, to learn to network and it's really interesting because we've seen a lot of great dialogue come out of it. Our groups have been to have been instrumental in developing structure and a framework around how we engage in that setting. So making sure that we have a consistent posting schedule, we have specific topics that we want to address, making sure that we provide opportunities for our members to contribute their feedback or share some of their own insights depending on what the question or what the topic is. So again, we make sure that everything we do has intention behind it and that we're not just doing something just to do it because you have to demonstrate the value at the end of the day.

Granted, we all know that this work is important, but it's all all stems back to what value are you creating. So value creation is honestly also at the core of this work too. 

Andrea: Awesome. Thank you for, for sharing that. I would say yeah. Being best friends with your communication team, like just come right in, and who oversees communications, who's doing all of the, whether it's your newsletters or if you've got like intranet, learn those tools because being able to communicate about what's going on at all levels is so critical.

And the other thing I heard you say was right, like you're kind of at division of work. It's making sure that your leadership teams are well informed because they really, truly are able to help communicate what you all need and what you all are trying to do. You can't just rely on a single email. You cannot just rely on saying, we put it on the Internet and people going and getting information. It's got to be so many multiple touch points for some people. And I think that's where those skills like marketing really come into play. So like communications really come into play because one time isn't necessarily going to cut it. You've to be able to figure out like how to cut through all the noise of, hey, this is my day job, and these are the 900 things I got to do.

Why would I prioritize reading this thing about DEI or taking time away from what I'm supposed to be doing? And that's such a hard kind of roadblock for a lot of DEI folks to overcome is just like that lack of awareness, that lack of how do I know what's going on, how do I find it? And the more you can get people to actively and seek it out, it's so much better. It makes your job so much easier. 

Michael: You said it. Yeah, it really does. And you really have to again, be intentional about how you are circulating your information. So if you got something coming up, great. I'm glad that you've put it in multiple touch points, like you were saying. But are you going to follow up? Are you going to summarize, recap, share with how they can access whatever was shared in case they missed it?

And that's one thing that we've done a really good job at this year is packaging it up. You can't just leave the door open and share that this is coming up. You got to close the door and make sure they know that this is where everything else is being housed after the fact. So we've seen a lot of success and a lot of engagement around that, too, with people revisiting recordings or revisiting resources that we created for a specific tempo, month or event, whatever it may be.

So you really have to be thoughtful in your approach. So you said it all, but I think it's just it's a make or break and it can help your work and it could, you know, again, spread your, spread your message, or it could prevent you from doing that if you don't do anything at all with respect to that.

So I'm glad that you mentioned that. I'm glad you stamped you sealed that and you sent it off in the mail because it's important.

Andrea: Absolutely. I have literally said to people, you know, I've worked with some clients and it's like, okay, where are people consuming information? And they're like, well, you know, at lunch they go into this break room, okay, well, that's where they're going to get information, but they're not sitting in front of in front of a computer. Is there a screen inside that room?

Can we put a screen inside of that room? Can we make sure we're print if we're having to print things? I know that's old school, but like, do we print things and put them somewhere? If there's a normal place in which people are accustomed to receiving information, figure out all those touchpoints. Yeah. And, and like, get in there.Don't be afraid to use them. 

Michael: We, we speak the same language because when you said old school, I was like in my head, well, we just made some magnets for people to learn more about our, our Internet site so they can access the resources. Again, they all stems back to like what's going to resonate with them the best.

So no approach is a bad approach. And that mindset of old school, sometimes that's just where people are and that's where that's just what works best for them. So I'm glad you said that because you don't necessarily always have to be like super innovative and super creative. Like sometimes, you know, it's been your approach. Yes, you can do all the things, but your product doesn't always have to be that way. And I think that's that's something that is important to remember. I'm so glad you said that. Yeah. Because that's what sometimes will resonate best with people. And you have to again, be mindful of that. Like your it also speaks to just to like the generation that we work with to like they're at different points like putting a flier in the break room. It might be better for them, you know, or you have your other audience that maybe is consuming things more in a social media context or a digital context. Cool. Do that too. But you can't leave one group out, right? You have to also think that way too, in terms of what somewhat  is a way that somebody is comfortable accessing information.

So I'm glad you said that too. 

Andrea: And here we work in DEI. Who would have thought we think about all the ways that people need to be able to do things and what this really comes down to. Okay, So I'm going to pivot on that because I know I could talk about it all day long, but

Michael: I could do

Andrea: As someone who has more recently, you know, made the transition into DEI full time, what is one thing that you wish you knew kind of coming into this or what is a one piece of advice that you would really give to someone who's on their own journey of of making that? So either way that you want to approach that.

Michael: Yeah, I don't know if there's a word for this, and if there is, please tell me or a phrase, but I wish I knew early on how critical it is to have that competency and to manage expectations from multiple lenses. Because I said this earlier, you have to always kind of take a step back and see how X person would view this from their role. Right? I think that's something I wish I understood earlier on, because when you do that, you're able to speak to that, you're able to speak to how it's addressing, you know, their specific function or how they can contribute to it or yeah, like we looked at it from this perspective and we want to make sure that, hey, like for example, we looked at it from a legal perspective, but we want to make sure that, you know, we're not encouraging folks to engage in X behavior. And so we want to make sure that they know that this is where they can go to if they want to express those specific concerns. So making sure that we always have a plan mapped out that aligns to that role. So don't know if there's a word for it. It's kind of along the lines of managing expectations, but with specific roles in mind.

And also another piece of advice I have is if you're looking for a career in DEI, if you're if you're just now starting, be familiar with current trends, be familiar with different resources when it comes to impact reports, benchmarking, maturity assessment tools. That's my 2024 goal is to really dive deeper into our functions and utilize some of these maturity assessment tools to see where the gaps lie and what we can do to fill those gaps from a diversity equity and inclusion standpoint.

And we talk a lot about change management. Be comfortable engaging in some of those skills that enable you to have a successful deployment of your program or a new behavior that you're trying to establish or a new resource that you're trying to circulate and have folks incorporate into their role. So be comfortable with change management and learn that it is a process, but it's something that will really, once you grasp it and once you have everyone that you need in your corner, it'll really help make your work that much easier. And I've seen that come to life. So those I said three things, but I would say those are the three most important things that, that I wish I would have learned earlier on or had access to earlier on.

Andrea: Yeah, No, I think that idea of like just understanding those various business functions like it's kind of where you are going with that and having that understanding and competency of like, okay, how does this relate to legal, how does this relate to these people and making sure you're not just coming at it from a one size fits all approach like we've been talking about is so important because you're going to get that pushback at times you know. You may get pushback from a sales leader or what does this have to do with us? Oh, glad you asked. Here's how it's relevant to this audience and these people within this specific role in line of business and what they're trying to accomplish and why this matters. So I think you gave some really great tips, and I love this conversation. So I'm going to close out by asking you, what is one book or podcast you talked about just kind of, you know, continuously learning and upskilling. So what is one book podcast or learning tool that you would recommend to somebody interested in this space or looking to upskill who's already in this space.

Michael: Yeah, a book that I'm currently reading right now and I put it, I pick it up and I put it down, but when I pick it up, I'm like, man, like, you know, finish it already. I try and incorporate it into as much of my week or a month as I can. It's DEI Deconstructed by Lily Zheng, I'm sure I'm not the first to mention this and I probably won't be the last. But they just do such a good job at just really explaining kind of contextually where DEI has evolved from and giving a historical context to the work and also showing how we can maximize opportunities to really demonstrate the impact that DEI has in an organization. So I highly recommend it. No matter where you are in your DEI professional journey. Even if you're not in a DEI role, I still think that that book that Lily wrote is, is has so many nuggets of knowledge that can be applied to any role and in the corporate space or wherever you're coming from. So I would definitely double down that.

Andrea: I I'll triple down I, you know, I've, I've read it. I enjoyed it. I think Lily brings a lot of critical thinking into this work and is really helping us all to get out of our comfort zone and how we think about DEI and what the future of DEI is. I think they just released that they're going to be doing a new version of the book actually. I'm really kind of.

Michael: Wow! So I gotta finish this one.

Andrea: I think it's going to go from deconstructed to reconstructed, I believe is what they said. So I'm going to have to check that out too. But yeah, I definitely recommend DEI Deconstructed and thank you so much for being here with us. Is there anything else that you want to share before we wrap up today? 

Michael: I just want to say thank you for inviting me and thank you for seeing the value and what I have to contribute from my perspective. I think sometimes as professionals we get so caught up in the work because sometimes it's personal that we don't always take a step back to recognize how far we've come. And that's something that my director always tells me. She's like, look at what we've done from January to now. And sometimes I fail to recognize that. So this is just another reminder of how far I've come in my journey.

So thank you and I'm happy to connect with anybody in the LinkedIn space. If you have questions or if you are curious about pursuing a career in DEI or you know what my day to day looks like, I'm happy to provide that insight because again, I always want to give people what I did not have. And I'm not saying I didn't have access to folks who were DEI professionals, but I just didn't pursue that as an opportunity to connect. So I invite you to take that leap. If you're nervous, just do it because you never know where I might lead you. So I am always happy to provide that connection as well. 

Andrea: Awesome. Thank you so much. 

Michael: Yes, thank you. 

Andrea: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the DEI career conversations. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and hit the bell so that, you know, as soon as new episodes are live.

Also, if you'd like to learn more about our brand new program, be sure to check out the links below or visit DEICareer.com and look at our courses. This new course is so exciting because not only are we going to help support you as a job seeker, thinking about pivoting your passion into a career, into DEI, but we're also going to make sure that you have the tools and resources you need in order to learn how to create data informed strategies for DEI, how to create metrics, how to make sure that you know how to do the work of DEI by getting unprecedented insights from DEI professionals who are doing this work day in and day out.

So I'm so excited about it. I hope that you'll join us. We Monthly Community Connection calls for anyone who's a part of the program and you can learn more about it all at DEICareer.com.