BIO: Ruchika Tulshyan is the best-selling author of Inclusion on Purpose: An Intersectional Approach to Creating a Culture of Belonging at Work (MIT Press). The book was described as “transformative” by Dr. Brené Brown. Ruchika is also the founder of Candour, an inclusion strategy practice. A former international business journalist, Ruchika is a regular contributor to The New York Times and Harvard Business Review and a recognized media commentator on workplace culture.

Transcript:

Ruchika:  Where I will meet leaders who say, Oh, we have members of our team who were born in a different era or, you know, like, it's fine. We think we just let bad behavior go because, you know, it's not like they're gonna change. And then I have worked with and also spoken at organizations where that's not going to fly, where there is an intrinsic value that the organization has placed on behaviors that model the growth and model failure. But learning from it. That model, who you are today with a fixed mindset isn't who you're going to be tomorrow, if you're willing to learn.

Andrea: Welcome to DEI Career Conversations. I'm your host, the DEI career coach Andrea G. Tatum. In this episode, I sat down with best selling author and inclusion strategist Ruchika Tulshyan. We talked about why intersectionality is so critical in this work. We also talked about how leaders can focus on organizational behaviors to help move DEI forward within their companies. And she shared with us how having a growth mindset actually led to her writing one of the most viewed articles on the Harvard Business Review website all about imposter syndrome. So if you're thinking about making a pivot into DEI, you do not want to miss this episode. And don't forget to like, share and comment so I can continue bringing you more conversations just like this one. And check out DEI career.com to learn about my courses and coaching programs for professionals who are thinking about how they can pivot their passion for DEI into a career.

All right, let's get into it, y'all. I am so, so very excited for today's conversation. I have my amazing guest with me here today. Ruchika, thank you for being here. Please just start us off by telling us all about your professional journey from a journalist to being a DEI author, being an inclusion strategist. Just dive in and tell us all the things.

Ruchika: Ooh, All the things I think I want. I want to lead with a couple of things. I think the most important part of my identity is that I've lived in many different countries and been part of many different cultures, and that has really informed everything I've wanted to do. So I think there's that. And then the second part of it is storytelling. I'm a deeply, deeply interested and curious, maybe a little too curious about people and systems and ideas and cultures. So those two things have been very formative throughout my life. And indeed, I started my career as a business journalist. I think this time in history is really interesting because it, you know, you hear that things happen in cycles and really covering 2008 and nine, the financial crisis of that time in, you know, as a journalist and then now being able to look at some of those similar rumblings, hopefully never to that level, but similar situations in my work as a DEI practitioner and inclusion strategist, someone who has written a book really looking at folks who are really marginalized by systems in their workplaces today. It's been a really interesting time, I would say. So really just a quick round up is I, you know, made the transition from journalism into the technology industry just a just about a decade ago. I think the technology industry really laid bare for me some of the big challenges that we see that are, you know, universal in the sense that there are systems of oppression at play, whether you look at the financial industry or journalism, indeed, the media industry.

But I think there's something about the technology industry that felt really just very isolating as a woman writer because of that cognitive dissonance of on the one hand, you're very innovative, supposedly with high growth, you know, you're supposed to be very meritocratic. There are opportunities for all of all, you know, all good ideas. Rise to the top is what you hear. You fail fast, all of that. And then the cognitive dissonance of actually being a woman of color in the technology industry and observing more than anything the experiences of other marginalized, even more marginalized women of color in the technology industry. And so I made a very unplanned change from, you know, journalism and tech communication into what I'm doing right now. At that time, it didn't feel like there were there was really a blueprint or a playbook for it. Most of the DEI practitioners I had known it, I didn't even think that. I didn't even know if I if DEI practitioner was what I wanted to do or even that that sort of thing existed. That even was there even a role that existed like that.  And making that transition about ten years ago completely not knowing what I was doing, where it was going and to be able to be at this side of the journey is taking a lot of leaps of faith. Obviously having the privilege to do so. But I feel really lucky. And, you know, I get to meet amazing people and learn from amazing people like you Andrea, which has been a constant every time we've interacted, every time I've seen, or if you put out like, okay yes, this is what makes the hard days in this work a little less hard.

Andrea: Yeah, same, same. And thank you for that. Like, I, you know, for just for a little bit of background, even just on our relationship, like, I met Ruchika through a mutual friend and I was telling that friend like, I'm really looking for somebody to talk about the DEI who has an understanding about being in tech and can really speak to the nuances of of that. And, and my colleague shout out to Steve and it was like, hey, you've got to you've got to meet this person. And luckily, like days later, we ended up being at a conference together and I got to hear you speak on a panel with several other women, one of whom was Minda, Minda Hart, and she had just put out her book, You had your first book out around diversity.

And I was just like in awe of the women on that panel who could like you just talked about, gave that power of storytelling and how impactful it was. As I looked at the rest of the audience, one, it was very validating for other women of color who were sitting and listening to your stories. And I think we don't give enough credit to how important validation is in this because it can feel like Is it just me, you know, and two, for the handful of white people non, you know, members of the global majority, like they were just like, oh, huh. You know, it's like you just see these little light bulbs going up and so like that. And from there we've built such a beautiful relationship. I'm so appreciative of you being a confidante, a mentor, but also something that I not only see you obviously talk about in your work, but that you actually do. You model this, you show up as a sponsor. Like I know that you have sent more people my way. You speak my name and rooms and like, tell me a little bit about how did you come to realizing like not only is it something to talk about, but something that you model in your practice as well, something like mentorship and sponsorship.

Ruchika: Thank you so much, Andrea. And I feel the same way and talk about sponsorship because what had happened, if you recall, is the opportunity that you tapped me for was truly the first. It was the first virtual engagement that I did as we were getting into the COVID 19 pandemic. I, you know, it was one of those moments where I was just like, here's this thing, it's booked and we don't know if we're going to be virtual or not. And I remember this feeling of like dread, like, obviously that was like the global dread, the health dread, the like failure of government, like literally all the things, you know, having a three year old that had, like all of these things. And then I remember having our meetings with each other and it just felt validated. It just felt like I am not alone in navigating, wanting systems change, dreaming of a world where more of us could be seen and have our stories told. But that pandemic wasn't going to take that away from us. You know, the pandemic wouldn't change or it wouldn't reduce the momentum that so many of us had been building, sometimes in silos. So I do want to say that, and I really appreciate the way you sponsored me in that moment and continue to do so. And I think the importance of sponsorships sometimes I think the challenges people think sponsorship or even, you know, allyship is is the one where I kind of struggle a little bit, is that you, you know, you affirm someone. Validation is super important, but like you sort of talk to someone and you're like, Oh, you're doing well in your career or you’re you've written this great book or you have this amazing, you know, podcast and show and that's wonderful. And it's a very sort of one on one which, which has its place in time and it has its place in a person's life and career.

But from a professional standpoint, and especially as you are trying to make an impact and make momentum and make change, what you really need is sponsorship and you need someone to speak your name and rooms that you would never be part of, right? And you may be left out because you are from an underestimated, underrepresented identity, especially as women of color. It could be for a variety of reasons that you aren't represented there. And I think that we forget, or maybe we aren't even made aware of how important sponsorship is and the research show that, especially in corporations, the majority of we know this, that 80 plus percent of corporations, especially when you get to VP level and above, are staffed by white men. And research shows that three quarters of senior leaders sponsor junior folks of the same race and gender as them. So,  it becomes this sort of self fulfilling prophecy and vicious cycle of sponsoring not only the same identities, the same people sponsor the same people. So for me, what I'm really hoping and dreaming of in terms of systems, both systems that will change and to try and do my part to make change on an individual level is to sponsor women of color and sponsor women specifically who don't look like me, women of color who don't, who are not South Asian necessarily, because that's where I think our collective liberation lies in our sponsoring each other, speaking our names and rooms, amplifying each other, not just on that one on one support level, which is wonderful and has its place. But for us to make the type of change and the impact we want to, we need to very actively sponsor each other.

Andrea: I love that break down like it's so critical. It's something I talk about in my work all the time. So thank you for just kind of walking us through through kind of your thoughts on that. And so, you know, in thinking about your approach, I heard you say, right, just trying to think even more broadly outside of itself and, and as a black woman, I try to do the same. And like, while it is critical to focus so much of this work from that standpoint, as a black woman, I also acknowledge there's limitations in that. And so I love to hear a little bit like I know you and I personally have talked a little bit about this, but what was your journey from your first book to your second book and thinking about who you wanted to center? And I just want to shout out, I see you've got it in the back, but like I have it here, inclusion on purpose and specifically says an intersectional approach to creating, you know, a culture of belonging at work. And I love that you talked about that intersectional approach. So just talk to me a little bit about like your journey from that first book to thinking about that intersectional approach in your second book.

Ruchika: Thank you. And there is a, there is definitely a part of me that really wanted to write a lot of the wrongs that I set out in my first book, The Diversity Advantage Fixing Gender Inequality in the Workplace. Because the focus that I put on gender inequality in the workplace was sort of a general. You know, women are struggling in the workplace, in corporate workplaces around the world, which is very much true.

Andrea: Yeah

Ruchika: It did not take an intersectional approach. And I think so much I mean, you know, I've done some deep work and thought processing around this and some healing around it, and a big part of that was having to decolonize my mind and decolonize and unconditioned myself from systems of white supremacy, which told me as an immigrant woman of color that my success lay only in upholding both white supremacy and dominance and as well as anti-blackness. And I think that is something that is a very deep work that more immigrants and diaspora, especially Asians, need to do in this country and around the world really have had good conversations around this. And so in some way to try and right that wrong to really learn in public around some of the mistakes I made in writing a book about gender inequality in the workplace, I did not take a deliberately intersectional approach. I'm really proud and really glad that I was able to kind of have that opportunity to do that and learn in public and put forward through storytelling and data and case studies what it's like to really create a future where, again, our collective success, our collective wins as women of color, as the fact that, you know, here's here's when I actually wrote the book, like, here's the reality.

My experience as an Indian immigrant, Singaporean Indian immigrant woman, is going to be different from your experience as a black woman for sure. And the fact that we have both entered the workplace as nonwhite women is going to make a huge impact on our workplace experiences. There's no denying this. There's good data to back this up.

Andrea: Absolutely.

Ruchika: And there is again, it's the both and it's very, very important to be able to speak about your stories from your vantage point. If I am ever invited to talk about, you know, what is the black experience in the workplace, I will never be the person speaking. I will never be the lead speaker in that forum, for example. Right. I can use the data. I can say the data suggests this. The data shows that my my anecdotally experience might have the evidence and interviews show blah, blah, blah, and that's it. And where I think, again, success lies, our collective liberation lies in ask banding together, understanding that there are unique experiences we have had as women of color. And so I use it as a social and political identity. Not, not in a big part of white supremacy has been to divide us and to oversimplify our categorization, right. And to oversimplify the multitude of beautiful identities, the intersecting identities that make us who we are. And sometimes in doing that, what has happened as a result is we don't realize how many struggles are similar and how much, for example, me being vocal about the existence of anti-Blackness and me being vocal about advocating for a future where there is black liberation and black joy, black justice is very much going to benefit me too.

And o my hope is that we can do more of this work without being, you know, without saying to each other. And, you know, I know, Andrea, you and I are totally in sync on this, but I hope what we can do is we can realize how much stronger we can be together if we focus on uplifting, especially those who are most marginalized in our society, in our workplaces today.

Andrea: Oh, I love it. I this is why I'm so excited to have you, because you just you laid it out so, so beautifully. And I, and I love having those conversations, but I also really love your work is because you do bring so many aspects of your own identity. You talk about diversity, equity and inclusion from a global lens whereas many of us right, we bring our lived experience as Americans who were born and raised here. But right. You just talked about all the nuances that go into it. And, and I think that is so critical and why I love, you know, reading what you write on LinkedIn, you've recently been posting about what's happened in Seattle and the caste systems. And I think that it's easy for those things to not get the shine when there's so many things happening, unfortunately, in the world.

So I love, I love that approach. And so I want to keep talking about your book because if you couldn't tell, I mean, I've got like so many pieces of paper and highlights and I really think about your book as a, as like a resource that I can constantly go back to. It wasn't a book that I was like, let me just read it one time and like, yeah, it's, it's on my bookshelf because I constantly go back to it.

But in the book you talk about organizational behaviors and specifically how those organizational behaviors can drive inclusion within a workplace. And I love that framework of thinking about DEI. So what are specifically a couple of organizational behaviors that new DEI professionals may need to consider when they're thinking about like, how do I help a company become more diverse, equitable and inclusive?

Because I just don't think we talk about from that organizational lens quite enough. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Ruchika: Yeah. And you know, as you can tell, I love I love the spaces of the ‘both and’ and so when I actually wrote the book, I really and what's funny is when I get feedback, I get feedback from a lot of white leaders and white readers. Is that the first part of the book, which is really about the internal work that needs to be done, I write about privilege. I write about addressing your own privilege, making changes into your own mindset to be more inclusive and developing and inclusion mindset. So a lot of white readers tell me that part is really important and resonated a lot with them. And when I speak to women of color, there are actually people who are like, you know, the first part of the book, which is a little slow, and then it picked up.

And I really love the organizational behavior part. And and and I think what's what's really what I what I really appreciate about the the both and in this is I absolutely think that people all of us and even when I write about privilege I specifically talk about my own privilege something that I learned about and have seen modeled beautifully from Ijeoma Olu, who wrote this gorgeous, painful, hard and super, super compelling forward.

I feel so lucky for the book and so I really lead privileged discussions with and that internal work, discussions with like here's, here's the mistakes I made. Here are the parts where I didn't even think about white privilege. Costs is a great example of, you know, here in the Seattle area, we have banned discrimination, which is incredible. And for many years, despite being of Indian origin and having a caste assigned to me and being born of a class of a certain caste, I never even thought about it because that was part of my privilege right. So there's that. I think from the organizational behavior standpoint, of course, organizations are made up of people and are made up of leaders, and there are people who have more influence and power in shaping the culture within that organization. And so for me, when I think about organizational behavior is to be more inclusive. There are very much, there are behaviors, there are policies and actions and practices that are really important. You know, pay equity is something I talk a lot about in the book, talk a lot about making sure that you give effective feedback, you receive effective feedback, and then there are overarching behaviors like approaches that define the culture. So a culture of psychological safety is really, really important. Simply put, do people from underestimated identities, like women of color, do we have the option and the ability to speak up, to challenge status quo, to take risks and to fail without fear of retribution?

And the reality is most of us don't, Right? But in, a in an organization where the behaviors modeled, prioritized psychological safety, that creates a more inclusive environment. Another one is an organization which prioritizes the growth mindset, which is kind of related as well to that. You know, are we an organization where we believe you're a fixed person? And I really see this in my work in inclusion strategy and consulting, where I will meet leaders who say, Oh, you know, we have members of our team who were born in a different era or, you know, like it's for women. We just let bad behavior go because, you know, it's not like they're going to change. And then I have worked with and also spoken at organizations where that's not going to fly, where there is an intrinsic value that the organization has placed on behaviors that model growth, that model failure. But learning from it, that model who you are today with a fixed mindset isn't who you're going to be tomorrow if you're willing to learn.

And so that's an example. That's an example of an organizational behavior or a value that can make the biggest difference when it comes to inclusion. And I think, again, it's one of those things where, yes, the individuals who have an outsized influence in shaping that unfortunately today are mostly dominant group CIS, straight white men. And I think where there has been change, where there is a diversity of senior leadership, where there is a diversity of creating a culture of different people influencing the culture, you really see that growth mindset coming forward.

Andrea: That, that is profound. Like, I love those things because, you know, it is it's, it's funny to me that, you know, you just laid out some I was a simple in that they're easy to do but like they're not necessarily hard or new ideas in terms of like how to give feedback. But it's really interesting that when we talk about what diversity, equity and inclusion is and the work that is DEI, one thing that I have actually found is that many leaders don't connect the dots between DEI and organizational behaviors. They believe that DEI work strictly like kind of what you're talking about right in the beginning of the book, we're just going to talk about power. We're just going to talk about privilege. We're just going to talk about identity. And they don't quite get to that like change part in how it applies. And so when I show up in an organization, I'm like, Yeah, how are your leaders giving feedback? How are they setting up and preparing meetings? What does it look like for someone to, you know, grow in your company? Do they have a defined career path now? Like can you just come in and talk about diversity, equity and inclusion? I'm like, Well, yeah, that's, the, that's the conversation we're having.

Ruchika: And you're so right, you're so right. And I think the the, the work that has been very difficult is, you know, moving from that simplification, oversimplification and off will have a book club or we will have one talk or we will all, you know, post in Black Square to show solidarity, you know, all of those very performative measures or one and done. Some are performative, some are one and done without realizing everything today, every single function of the way that both how we operate as individuals within society as well as within an organization. Every single part of that has a relevance to it. And our policy, it's it both. It's both parts. Everything has a DEI implicit implication, right? Whether absolutely who you hire, where you post your job is, who you advance. Do you have an off boarding process? Why are people of color leaving? You know, where are they going? What is, the what are the issues like across the board? Who are the vendors you're working with? What are your policies like? We know even when we think about like benefits, we know that for for so many people of color who have been so deeply disadvantaged by a lot of the systems that have been in place here for, you know, decades, if not centuries, on every single thing matters more.

A comprehensive benefits policy matters that much more if you don't have generational wealth. Right. Having strong I know in this country health care, which is a shock to me, but health care is, is tied to your employer matters so much more. Right. It matters so much more if you're a person of color, if you're the first person in your family to have graduated college and had, you had a job where you had good health care benefits, like it's just it makes, it's it's so much more right. The stakes are so much higher.

Andrea: And I think you got to keep digging into that and keep digging into that. And saying like, okay, how inclusive are those benefits? Are we thinking about, you know, our caregivers? Are we thinking about people who are who may transition right, while they're at our company? Do our benefits create space? And for that, like all of those little things which are little at all matter when creating benefits that are inclusive, that create equity, like you said, that create generational generational wealth, all of those things.

I want to just pivot slightly because like I said, I know we can talk about all of the things that go into this, but, you know, I work a lot with people who are saying like, I want to make that pivot into DEI. They're coming from careers. So whether it's in academia, they're coming from maybe being a lawyer or whatever it is, maybe they've been doing marketing in tech. One of the number one things I hear from people is that they have this sense of fear about I want to apply, I want to do this job, but they feel this sense of what they what they identify as imposter syndrome. And I mean, your work, you and and Jodi-Ann Burey have done this work around imposter syndrome. You've been published in the Harvard Business Review. You have spoken with Brené Brown. I love, I love I lived for that interview with you all and Brené Brown because it just felt so like real.

But talk to me about that work. One, how did you all come to decide to do work on imposter syndrome? And then can you tell me how you think, like aspiring DEI professionals can shift their thoughts around imposter syndrome.

Ruchika: Oh my gosh, all the things. And at this point I feel like I should have both and tattooed on me somewhere.

Andrea: You and me both. It's my favorite. Like, I'm always like, it's a yes. And because like I said, you know, I used to work in theater. It's, it's an improv things. I'm like, Yes. And it's my number, it's my favorite.

Ruchika: It's the best. And it, makes it really made such a difference. It's transformational. If you can take that approach in life, whatever you do. So what's interesting is when I started in in, I mean, what began as sort of the very early journey of making the transition, essentially I was ready to leave a job that didn't serve me or an industry that felt very toxic.

And I was leaping into the abyss because I was really worried about my health, right? I was like, at that point where I was just like, I don't know what it's going to look like. And I was really young. Like, it didn't make sense what was happening in my body. And so what I when I leapt into the abyss at that time, there was no formalized approach to DEI anywhere, right?

Like you were either an H.R. professional and maybe if you worked for a forward thinking Fortune 500, that was a chief inclusion or diversity officer who was most likely someone who had had a lot of hr experience and had been put in. And I didn't even think of that as a career path, and I didn't know that it even existed.

And so a lot of what has got me to this point has been building the boat, as I say. And I think at the same time having a lot of rejection and being very adaptable and maybe that's a good thing. Like I've just been very adaptable about, you know, I, when I started Candour, my thought was, you know, let me take my journalism and communication, love and passion and my real interest and research that I've been trying to do on inclusion, diversity and equity. And let's see if there's a way to make inclusion communications a thing like maybe this is like people can come to me and they'll say, like, could you maybe audit the speech or could you help us audit, like the way we communicate communication guidelines, like things that I had done in the tech industry and other industries, certainly in my background in journalism and nobody was interested. Zero. I pitched, I pitched heavily. I was like, Listen, I'm running out of I left. I left my last job with three quarters of my stock options on the table like I have. You know, I'm, I am privileged to have health insurance tied to my spouses, but like, the money's going to run out now what? And nobody bit nobody was interested.

And, but, what was interesting is people started saying, well, you know, could you help us like maybe look into our policies and create a more like just just help us look at our policies. And I you know, I started working with the data scientist. We started doing this really it felt like a real like we talk about entrepreneurship, especially here in the Seattle area. It's like, you know, two dudes in a garage building like that is it kind of felt like that, Like not two dudes like, you know, a queer and non-binary person and myself and a woman of color were like, okay, like, what are we doing? Let's get this started. And I, I really, really look back at that time as definitely one where I felt a lot of like uncertainty and fear about like what I was doing and like, I'm just just from the sense of like I need to learn more. I need to expand myself more. But I had that growth mindset of like, I don't know, but I will learn and I'm going to go and talk to the people who have been so generous with me and learn a lot from them and make sure that obviously they get their flowers and all of that. I think where the imposter syndrome, the start of it really started. This thread that I started pulling was it started in the tech industry where I would hear a lot of especially white women talk about imposter syndrome as something they had to overcome to be leaders. And it was a narrative I never identified with. You know, it just didn't make sense, right, Because I've always had that little bit of that growth mindset of like, I may not know everything, but I'll learn. And there are things I know. And what I would find again and again is every time I would try and put ideas forward, I would face pushback, especially as the only woman of color in the department as working. And so fast forward to summer of 2020. Jody and I had only met like once or twice before that. We do a socially distanced lunch out here in the Seattle area.

We're like masks, no mask. Like, what do we do? So we're like outdoors. There's like bees flying around everywhere. Here where we were eating at our favorite Vietnamese restaurant, my favorite Vietnamese restaurant. And and I say to her, I was like, you know, something that's been really hard for me in this pandemic is I keep getting marketed women's conferences where speakers are going to talk about imposter syndrome. And I'm just and I'm like, it's a global pandemic. Like, what do you think? And she's like, imposter syndrome is B.S. and then goes inside.

Andrea: Just like Jodi-Ann 

Ruchika: Actually, yeah, that's exactly like Jodi-Ann. And we you know, again like we've we've talked about our story but it was just incredible to meet someone who really had seen again speak of validation. Right. Like who was seeing the world from my perspective as well right after being told for so long like, oh, no, what's holding you back is imposter syndrome.

What's holding women as a collective back, as imposter syndrome? What's holding people of color back is imposter syndrome. And finally, there was someone else who could look me in the eye at that time there. Because remember, like it was like five months into the pandemic really lonely period in history and time. And it just everything just clicked into place.

And so we wrote the piece. We co wrote the piece didn't even didn't even think about like the future would look like, didn't even know the how people would respond to it. And honestly, it's just been incredible. And I'm just so glad because just reminds you that like, by no means were we the only people feeling this way. So when I, you know, to kind of then dovetail back to your like original question, as you can see, I can go on and on and I need a little bit of corralling, especially on this topic. This is the one where like but I'd say the, you know, to, to bring this back to how aspiring DEI professionals I think I think there's something that makes us and calls us to this work that is especially those who are really doing it with their hearts because as I've heard it being said, this is hard work and it's truly heart work.

So if you are being called to this because it's hard work, and especially for those people who you know, and again, when I made the transition, there was no such thing. So it was not lucrative, there was no opportunity you kind of had to create as you went along. If there was anything. Now I feel like things have shifted a little bit where it's you know, I have seen some people rush in, where I've questioned the motives.

But largely for those of us who feel a bit of that like that, you know, like I'm called to this and really want to do this. The reason why I think that imposter syndrome feeling or those imposter feelings of of like, I don't know what I'm doing they come in is because for so long most of us have experience not belonging. We have experienced being told your point of view doesn't belong. It doesn't matter. It's not true. We may have gaslit ourselves to cope. We may have experienced gaslighting where we worked or where we lived. And so that feeling of, you know, I don't belong here, I'm not sure is totally normal. It's totally valid. Do not call it imposter syndrome. It is not something that is wrong with you. It is something that you are working through after so long of being told your points of view and your expertise isn't valid, you're working through that to get to the other side of finding yourself, your authentic self. And I think that is the connection that is missing and was missing for so long in the imposter syndrome narrative.

Andrea: Yeah, yeah. You talk about it like as a, like a diagnosis, right? Like in your or your article, like people were like giving it like, oh, you've got it. Like it's, it's something you've been diagnosed with. When I love how you reframed it, it's something you're working through. And I think that anybody who's experiencing change, it's very normal to have fear, to have those questions. But you said it's all of the other like systemic things on top of that that you're the system has been working against you for so long that you are having to reframe how you think about it. And so that's so much of what I love doing is like the DEI Career Coach is just really helping people to understand like, no, you've gained all of these valuable skills in other things that you that you talked about how as, as, as a journalist, you storytelling was so important for you.

How does that show up in the work that you do? You know, like really thinking hard about like, oh yeah, I'm, I am a good storyteller. Check. How do I put that as a skill? So it's I love how you all talk about that and I will link it below the HBR article. I will link the Brené Brown conversation because I just love all of that, and, and really want people to just dive in and think about reframing their, their mindset

You've talked so much about having a growth mindset as well, and I think it's something that we actively have to work towards to to have that kind of a mindset. So I really appreciate that. So as we're kind of wrapping up, one of the things I'd love to just know, like in addition to having a growth mindset, in addition to some of the things that we've already talked about, what is one piece of advice that you would give to someone who is an aspiring DEI professional? As someone who is a consultant day in and day out. You are talking to the folks and trying to really drive that change. So based on what you see as a consultant, what is the piece of advice that you would give, especially to someone thinking about going in-house as a DEI professional.

Ruchika: You have to build your tribe. You have to build a tribe of people who will lift you up because again, as I mentioned, this is hard and heart work. I think if you plan to go in-house, it's very important to identify those who will practice allyship for you. As, as I said, often I see allyship and, I use I use ally really as a verb, not a noun.

And I think for folks going in heels, it's really important to understand who is going to practice allyship, who's going to have your back, because you are going to be tasked with a lot of really difficult work and difficult conversations, no matter how progressive the organization is, you know, and it could be in any industry. I have seen real challenges in industries that are supposed to be, you know, as selfless as nonprofit and and mission driven as, you know, philanthropy. And I've seen great work done from like very, very, you know, even within financial institutions, which are very clearly profit driven. But understand why how much and why DEI has to such an integral part of their work. So I think, I think making sure that you have a very strong in-house tribe, people who really show up for you, people who can really you know, we are what you're saying, amplify and sponsor is really important in addition to building a wonderful team.

And if you decide to go the consulting route. Same goes looking for like minded professionals, folks who are ready to mentor you. Obviously, Andrea, the wealth of resources that you put out there is such a gift to our community. And I just think what it would have been like to be in this space ten years ago and have this level of generosity and availability of resources, the way you put out, it's just it would have been transformative, voted and saved me a lot of hard heartache over the years, but I'm glad we're connected now. But I think that's very important. I think one of the things that often gets left out in this conversation is how much abundance of opportunity there is in DEI. Because I can and I have and this is the difficult part of it. Sometimes you see people operating from the mentality of scarcity and that there is not enough roles and there's not enough jobs and there is, you know, and I think that is a function of white supremacy trying to keep us apart.

But again, to do this work transformational and in a way that's really going to make lasting, sustainable, effective change over years and decades and maybe, who knows, even centuries, depending on the organization you have to build together, build strongly together. And I think that's a part of the conversation that gets missed and left out, honestly.

Andrea: Yeah, I mean, like for me, I always talk about like, find your champions. Like when people say, like, what's the first thing that I should do if I'm, you know, getting in role, especially if you're like the head of or a chief diversity officer, I'm like, find the champions. Find the champions in every single department. Know who's going to really rally for you because you're having to literally change things again at that organizational level.

And if you don't know who your champions are in your sales department, in your marketing department, you know it's going to be really, really hard to make this change at an organizational level because as a DEI professional, you aren't doing this alone. So much of what you're doing is influencing people, and so it's your power of influence, but also the power of those champions that you have who are going to be able to help create transformation.

And that's what ultimately for me, that's what it comes down to, is like how, how do we work together to be transformative in this work? Because like you said, it's hard work and it's heart work. I think I say that in every single episode. It is hard work. It is heart work.

Ruchika: So, so hard. One more thing, Andrea, would you do that? Sometimes? You know, I hope and pray that for everyone who makes this transition, you find champions in both in your own community and outside your community, right? It is really painful when someone who looks like you and has similar shared identities isn't a champion. And I think for some of us we have to be prepared for that. You know, and I think when we look for champions, absolutely, you know, there is an opportunity to build and bring community together of people who share identities. And I think sometimes you'll find champions in very unlikely places. And being open to that is also very much part of this. And I say this because it's interesting with inclusion on purpose, undoubtedly I have had vocal women of color champions. There is no doubt that the reason why the book is in Some People's hands is because of the relentless championing of women of color. And I don't want to short sell that at all. I think sometimes in organizational dynamics, because most organizations were built on structures of competitiveness and late stage capitalism. And the idea that only room for one, sometimes you can really see that dynamic play out. And so it's important to build a tribe and sometimes those people in your tribe may not look like you. They may not have shared identities, they may not have lived experiences, maybe they make mistakes that are embarrassing or humiliating or maybe even to the point of, you know, being true exclusionary behaviors. And I think that sometimes the greatest champions can be those people, too.

Andrea: Oh, I got the goosie… Just like all all of it, because that is so real. And I mean, I there's that phrase, you know, all skin folk ain’t kinfolkl. It is real because so it is so easy to say given to that scarcity mindset and the fact that we've all been conditioned by these, these systems of oppression.

We have really been told that, you know, you know, there are people who have the pull up as you climb mentality and there are some people who have like the kick them down while I climb mentality and you've got to kind of figure out how to navigate that. And it it is it's a hard feeling when you're like, I'm in this work, I'm doing it. And then like the people who you think are about to be your champions are the other people who are about that. Like rah rah, The work are just like, Nah, I'm good. I've made it, I've arrived. So what are we talking about? Like that to me, when I've had that conversation with someone, especially maybe a man of color, then you're just like, Okay, let me rethink my whole world just a little bit because

Ruchika: I do have imposter syndrome. Yeah, yeah. It comes from one of your own. You're like, Wait, what? Did I make that up? Yeah.

Andrea: Yes. Yeah, but it is, it is the fact that. Right. We're all coming from different places. We've all, we're all approaching this work at different points in our own journey. And so it is a difficult thing to navigate. But I love it. Like you said, find your people, find the ones who are going to be champions and and rely on them and just push forward with those folks to the best of your ability and hopefully everybody else will. You know, that's the goal. Everybody else will get on board. But you work hard with those folks.

Ruchika: So and then take it and then the rest way too. You can like last note..rest when can you please.

Andrea: Yeah, right. Yeah. We just as before we started recording, we talked about like the importance of that as of rest. And I think one thing I was just telling as we were coming out, I was saying like, I finally have had a little bit of space for the first time in a very long time to actually rest. But even in that I've been really having to do the self work. I love like the NAP ministry online that is like, how do I unlearn this idea that I have to earn this rest? And it's like I did earn I get everything that I do. But like, yes, so rest as a part of your self-care practice because as you are doing this work, it is easy to burn out to work yourself to the point of I have people who have called me and said, Andrea, I'm sick. I'm about to be in the hospital I'm having to take, you know, leave from my work because this work can be that hard and it's that personal. So, yes, 100% rest when you can. Yeah.

With that. I mean that that's the mic drop moment.

I so appreciate you. I appreciate everything that you do in this work and your approach to it and always for including me in the conversation and just being such a big part of my own DEI career journey. So thank you for being here Ruchika. I'm going to link everything, especially the book and all of your work below, but where else can people find you online.

Ruchika: And the book?

Andrea: The book. Perfect.

Ruchika: Yes. Thank you. Thank you. I you know, I for me, I'm already I'm so overwhelmed by the response. So thank you so much to have this opportunity to talk about myself and my approach. It means so much, Andre, especially with someone as you know, an expert like yourself. It's incredible. So thank you.

Andrea: Far from it. And just learning. Learning every day, that is. That is how I grow. So Awesome. Thank you so much.

I hope you enjoyed this episode of the DEI career conversations. Don't forget to like, subscribe and hit the bell so that you know, as soon as new episodes are live. Also, if you'd like to learn more about our brand new program, be sure to check out the links below or visit DEI career.com and look at our courses.

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