BIO: Sacha Thompson is the founder of The Equity Equation, LLC, a boutique inclusive culture consulting and coaching firm based in the Washington, DC area. With 20+ years of experience within the education, non-profit and tech industries, Sacha’s work is about removing barriers or providing support to achieve equity. She helps her clients by filling the gap between where they are now, and where they want to be. Clients will reach their highest potential by identifying where growth is desired, and setting goals & objectives while holding themselves accountable. She was most recently featured in Forbes, Business Insider, and is a contributor on MSNBC’s The Cross Connection. Sacha is an International Coaching Federation (ICF) Associate Certified Coach, Certified Professional Diversity Coach, Maslow Certified Leadership Coach and 4 Stages of Psychological Safety Certified Coach. Sacha received her bachelor’s degree in Sociology, concentrating on Cultural Diversity & Ethnicity and a Master’s in Educational Policy, Planning, and Leadership from The College of William and Mary. She has also acquired her Masters of Business Administration from Johns Hopkins University, where she focused on management and marketing.

Transcript:

Andrea: I know some people may not be as familiar with the term, what is psychological safety?

Sacha: Right so psychological safety is really about being able to speak up, to be able to challenge the status quo without fear of retribution, to be able to say, “Hey, this thing is broken,” and know that your comments or thoughts on it won't be used against you.

Andrea: Welcome back to DEI Career Conversations, I'm your host and DEI career coach Andrea G. Tatum. In this episode, I sat down with Sacha Thompson. Sacha is an inclusion culture curator and the founder of the Equity Equation LLC, which is a small inclusive culture consulting and coaching firm based in the Washington DC area. She has 20-plus years of experience within education, nonprofit, and tech industries, but you're going to hear from her directly all about her own journey into the world of diversity, equity, and inclusion. She's been recently featured in Forbes Business Insider and is a contributor on MSNBC's the Cross Connection. Sacha is a great friend of the DEI Career Center, so I am thrilled to have her here back with me again today. I hope you all are ready for this amazing conversation. Let's get into it.

Welcome to DEI Career Conversations, Sacha. I am so, so, so, so excited to have you here. For anybody who is new to DEI Career Conversations, maybe this is the first time that you've seen Sacha, and if it is, I invite you to go back to one of the very first episodes where we were still doing this in panel format, and I think that was really just the inauguration of what this is now. So, first and foremost, thank you for being a part of my DEI career journey, Sacha, you have been an incredible mentor, friend, just everything that I could ask for, and I am so appreciative and so thankful that you're back here with us again today.

Sacha: Thank you so much for having me. I am honored. I am excited about this conversation, so thank you.

Andrea: Yay. Well, kick us off by telling us, one, who are you, and a little bit about your own journey into the wild, wild world of diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Sacha: Yes. So hello everyone. For those that don't know me, my name is Sacha Thompson. I am the inclusive culture curator. I have been doing this work my entire career. I started in, as a sociology major in undergraduate and just worked my way into doing things around cultural diversity and ethnicity. Worked at the Office of Multicultural Affairs in my undergraduate program, worked at Office of Multicultural Affairs in graduate school. And so it was something that I really was just passionate and excited to learn more about throughout my career, and I started my career in higher education. I wanted to learn more about different cultures, about different people, how they were experiencing college life, because I knew my experience was very different than many other people, especially if you're first-generation college student or even first generation in the country, then going to college in the United States.

So took that path, worked in several different areas, then went into the non-profit space, worked for the company that owned the GMAT, and part of my job was to increase the number of students that were taking the GMAT and focused on HBCUs, focused on women's colleges, focused on tribal colleges. So again, doing outreach that was very specific. Also, at that time, I had the opportunity and honor of working with my colleague who focused on accessibility. So that just opened my eyes to that aspect of the work and doing a lot more in that space in understanding test accommodations and all of those pieces of the puzzle. And then I went into tech, and honestly, for three years in tech, I was like, let me just do marketing. I'm good at marketing. Let me just learn this marketing thing in the tech space.

So I did that and then ended up working at a tech startup where I was the first Black female that company had hired, and it did not take long for that DEI hat to come back on just because of the things that I was experiencing. And so had the opportunity to help that company start their DEI efforts, started their first ERGs, and understanding what that meant in that organization. And launched three of them before I left. Had some fireside chats with our CEO, our chief technology officer, and why this was so important. And so was really proud of being able to do that. And then ended my career, my corporate career, leading inclusive marketing for another tech company, managing a program that was really focused on increasing the number of underrepresented technologists in the industry, and partnering with organizations that wanted to bring tech skills to those communities. And so it's just been a career of doing all kinds of things with all kinds of folks, but that thread of diversity, equity, inclusion has always been there.

Andrea: I love your story so much. We've seen that there's similarities in our own journeys, in our own stories, but when you had those early career jobs, even though your focus was DEI, what was your typical title when you were in higher ed?

Sacha: Oh, goodness. In higher ed, it was more around student affairs. I did that. I did community engagement. What was interesting about that? So my last higher ed job, I was a community coordinator, and then I was an assistant director for services for students in transition. And so the services for students in transition, I focused on sophomores and seniors. So sophomores, you have to decide a major, what are you going to do with your time here? And then seniors, how do you transition to life outside of college? Now you're graduating, what does that look like? But what I found was, even though that was for everyone, the students of color always ended up in my office because-

Andrea: Why could that be?

Sacha: I don't know. But they would always come into the office and either wanted to work with me or be on part of my team, or just hang out. And it even happened when I was at Hampton University. I worked there for some time, and I found that when I was at a predominantly white institution, those students, they wanted a connection, but it was also, I allowed them to be seen and helped them amplify their voices. So I have one particular student who we are the best of friends right now. I was in her wedding. She came into my office complaining, they're doing this, the administration, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, so what you going to do about it? And helped her, by the time she ended up leaving the office, she's geared up, yeah, we're going to do this and we're going to do that. But my whole goal was, how do you amplify these voices? How do you make sure you're heard and seen and valued?

And now she works at that university, now she's a part of that. And so at the time, folks were like, oh, you're stirring trouble. But it wasn't about stirring trouble. It was allowing people to find their voice and make sure that was heard and done in a way that was respectful, but then also would push administration to think about things in a different way. So I was like, I want you to be a little bit of a thorn in their side because you want to make sure that you're not forgotten. And so that was just, I started that in higher education and working with students, and I've continued doing that throughout my career. How do you amplify those voices of people that are often silenced?

Andrea: I love it. And I love the fact that as you talk about your career journey, even though you didn't have a title that said diversity, equity, and inclusion in it, it never stopped you from doing the work of DEI.

Sacha: Not at all.

Andrea: And when people ask me, oh, how do I get a job in DEI, I've never had the title. Well, can you just talk me through what you have done in your jobs, regardless of title, that have made those kind of an impact? And I just heard you say some key words: valued, seen, and heard.

Sacha: Yeah.

Andrea: And I know that that's a key aspect of the work that you do now in terms of thinking about psychological safety. So can you tell me a little bit about what has driven you into that specific focus of work, and what does that look like when you're working with clients?

Sacha: Yeah. So I want to answer the first question first in that I don't think I ever had a title of diversity anything in any title that I had. What I did was I just did it.

Andrea: Yes.

Sacha: And it's like, you just do it and then ask for forgiveness later. But I also knew who are the champions of this work, and I would have conversations. So when I worked for the tech startup, we had an internal Slack community, and I was just vocal there, and I would speak up there, or I would bring comments or topics up there that people would then feel comfortable asking questions or creating, we created this environment, and I remember, I want to say it was maybe 2009 or so, I took off a couple of days and I came back to the Slack channel and they were like, Hey, we missed you. And I was like, I took off … I just-

Andrea: Yes.

Sacha: And they were just like, do what now? And I had to explain, okay, what has been happening in Baton Rouge, what has been happening in St. Louis impacts me. This is how it has impacted me and how I show up at work. And so it was the first time any of them have even had some of those conversations. But I did it in a way where I wasn't berating or I wasn't blaming anyone. It was, “this is what it is, and I'm just going to educate you on it”.

And so I challenge people to, how can you do, how can you be that voice, but also balance how you take care of yourself in that too? Because again, I don't want people to just put them constantly, put themselves out and traumatize themselves as they do that. But I wanted to answer that. The other piece of it around psychological safety, I knew I didn't have it. And the more I started doing more research around it and started understanding what psychological safety was and the impacts of not having it on and being in an environment with it, I realized how it was affecting me. And so I wanted to get certified. I want to be able to help people with this because I understand that this is a big part of the problem.

Andrea: Can you define what, how do you define it and then keep going? Because I know some people may not be as familiar with the term, or they've just heard it, but don't necessarily know what is psychological safety.

Sacha: So psychological safety is really about being able to speak up, to be able to challenge the status quo without fear of retribution, to be able to say, Hey, this thing is broken, and know that your comments or thoughts on it won't be used against you. You won't be demonized in any way for that. And so as simple as it sounds in the workplace, it is a very difficult thing to have. And so I realized that I was not in an environment that was psychologically safe. I would speak up and next thing I know, I'm being called a bully. And I'm like, help me understand how me saying X, Y, and Z, particularly when it related to things around diversity and inclusion, it made people uncomfortable, but that didn't make me the enemy. Because I speak on it doesn't mean that I'm necessarily the problem. And so I was seeing that when I would speak up on certain things, the people that were in charge of those things were starting to position me as the enemy, because it was status quo, or they didn't know-

Andrea: That's the way we've always done it.

Sacha: Or they didn't know how to change it, and they didn't want anybody else to tell them because they had the title of director of X or VP of X. And so someone who was a manager or assistant director didn't have the authority to tell them how to do their job, though they had no experience in it. So that's when you talk about titles, I'm less about titles than what are you actually doing? How are you changing things? What are you doing to push the envelope to make sure that people are having better experiences? And so when it came to psychological safety, I got the certification, but then it clicked for me. The problem wasn't that I was totally in environments that were not psychologically safe. I had managers who did not have the skills or resources or tools to ensure that the environment was psychologically safe.

So when I would bring things up, they didn't know how to handle that. And so it was more like, oh, okay, well, we're going to go through HR to do X, Y, and Z. And then HR didn't know what they were doing either. That's a whole other show. And so it just made the situation worse for me, and I see it all the time. So now when I talk about psychological safety and I talk about diversity and inclusion, I'm like, this is the inclusion work. This is that inclusion work. And so much of my, most of my time I spend with people managers and giving them the skills on how to connect with the people on their teams. And if there are issues around race or sexual orientation or gender, how do you have those complicated or difficult conversations in a way that's not punitive? Where you can be a resource, you can be a tool, or you could even say, you know what? I don't know what to say or do, but let me do what I need to do in order to support you.

And so making that connection and building trust. And so that's where I spend a lot of my time right now in this space because I didn't have that in my career.

Andrea: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And thank you for sharing about... You and I have had lots of conversations about certifications and the value of them and when to get them, if you actually need them. And so I heard you mention specifically that you got certified in psychological safety. So what does that mean? And at what point in your journey did you say, yeah, this is why I want the certification?

Sacha: Yeah. So the psychological safety certification was the first coaching certification that I received in that, well, and I did it while I was still in the corporate space. I knew I was leaving. And so I was just like, what can I get them to pay for?

Andrea: Not mad at that at all.

Sacha: What can we use these dollars for? Yes, support me. But what I appreciated about it is it also spoke to my need for data. Everything's about the data. And so with that certification through LeaderFactor, I'm able to do an assessment. I can provide organizations with their psychological safety scores. And so what I do is I'll work with an organization, I'll give them their all-up score, but then I do it by demographics as well. And so I'm like, okay, so this is the experience of the women. This is the experience of let's say under 40, this is your experience of people of color, or depending on how large it is, I might be able to even break that down even more. But I don't want them to say, oh, our psychological safety score is great. There's nothing we need to work on. Let's look at this. We're going to look at it by department. We're going to look at it by demographics, we look at it from all of these angles, because now I want to be able to tell a story.

And so if I see, okay, these people of color, they're having a very different experience than the rest of the organization, now we can be very intentional in what we do because the data tells us that this is where we need to do work. So I do that, but then also, I work with those people managers and give them the tools and resources that they need based on their score. So if I'm seeing, oh, your inclusion safety score is, eh, it's okay and the comments are saying, I don't feel like I'm valued on the team. Okay. So then that tells me your contributor safety score may be low too. So what can you do as a leader to help people contribute? So then I can give you tools, then I can give you recommendations on how you can show up as a better manager to make sure that people feel valued, seen, heard, and connected. And so that's all of the pieces of the puzzle that come together. But I do so in a way where it's, DEI isn't necessarily the forefront of it, but it's embedded in the work.

Andrea: Absolutely. I don't know anyone who talks about diversity, equity, and inclusion, and those words don't come up. But it's really interesting, and I love that you talked about working with middle managers. I love that you talked about using data and you said, my favorite word, which is being intentional. None of this matters, we can talk about it all day long, but if you're not going to do and be intentional, none of it matters. And so-

Sacha: None of it.

Andrea: ... it's just like, no, this is active work. You have to change. And so I love that you're using the data to show them where you are, and then taking them on the journey of what they can be and seeing and being able to measure real change, real significant change. Because a lot of times people are just like, oh, I don't know what to measure in DEI. I don't know what it is. And numbers around diversity are not the end all, be all of a story. And I heard you talk about the story. That's not the end all, be all of what this work is. So thank you so much for really highlighting areas of opportunity where organizations and DEI leaders can say, here's something we can really focus on that's tangible and metrics-driven.

Sacha: What I think the other part of it is how do you make theory actionable?

Andrea: Yes.

Sacha: Because I think so many workshops and programs are very theoretical, and people get it, you could check the box and say, oh, yeah, I get it. I understand, but how do you make it actionable?

Andrea: Yes.

Sacha: How does it look day-to-day? And so I really try to work with those people managers in making it actionable. So the coaching that I do with them is it gives them the opportunity too, to come to me as, ‘Hey, okay, this is the problem. This is the situation.’ And I can coach them through how to handle that. And so it gives them the sense of, what I hear is I don't get to talk about being a manager anywhere else. I could talk about the work, and we talk about the work all day, but me being a manager and being invested in being a good manager, I don't always have the luxury of doing that. And so being able to give them that one-on-one time to be able to better their management skills, especially when it comes around, you have unique teams and people with learning disabilities or other things that are happening, especially post-pandemic. How do you handle that as a manager? And so we can do that. And then that also starts to model equity in that process.

Andrea: Yeah. I, literally the day I think I started to consider what a career in DEI looked like for me was 10 minutes after going through, finishing a DEI unconscious bias training that I had to attend for my organization. And like you said, in theory, beautiful, loved it, learned a lot, saw lots of other people who didn't look like me going, oh, this is interesting… in theory. And I think several of us walked out and went, okay, I'm glad I came to this, but now what?

Sacha: Now what?

Andrea: And that was, my feedback that I gave to the company was, where was the what to do with this? I actually don't know what to do. And so even for me on the consulting side, when I do present and do workshops, I really root it in intentionality and action.

Sacha: Yeah, yeah.

Andrea: What are the intentional things we can do to make organizational change that then reflects and helps us become more diverse, equitable, inclusive, et cetera, et cetera.

Sacha: I don't call my workshops, workshops. They're experiential learning sessions because people, it's very actionable. And in that you're looking at, let’s use the example of inclusive communications. We'll go through that process, but then there's a part of it where it's like, okay, let's look at where we are missing the mark. And they actually sit down and start talking through, oh, well, we're only sending this communication via email. Not everyone checks email. What other communication ways that, can we communicate this out, especially if it's something that everyone needs to know? When we're going, when we’re having meetings, are you sending an agenda ahead of time? Oh, well, yeah. Some people are, some people aren't. Okay, that inconsistency, how could that be impacting how people show up? So we start to unpack things that are actually happening within the organization that they can immediately say, you know what? We need to change these things.

Andrea: Yes, I love it. I love the action and I love it. But I want to pivot just slightly because I know you and I can sit here and talk about-

Sacha: Days.

Andrea: ... the work of DEI and what that means for days. And so if you could go back in time now, knowing all of the things that you know from the wide range of approaches you've taken to DEI, regardless of if you've had the title or not, but for where you are in your career right now, what is one piece of advice that you would go back and give 22-year-old Sacha?

Sacha: Don't listen to the haters. I had so many people that were, by title, higher than me in organizations that were responsible for diversity and inclusion or had put themselves in positions to be the spokesperson for diversity and inclusion, yet they hadn't embodied it. And so how they, the threat that I was to them, I started to take on. So I started to believe, well, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, or maybe I am looking at this the wrong way, or maybe I do need to fall in line. And it took its toll on me because it wasn't aligning with my values, it wasn't aligning with who I was. And so I allowed that to last a lot longer than it should have.

And so it was being confident in like, no, I know my stuff. I know what I'm talking about. I have enough people in my circle that I trust to pull me if I'm doing something wrong or incorrect. And so if I had just stood in the confidence of that, and not these folks that because of position or title felt that they were better than, or didn't like that I was getting attention, and their issues, those were their issues, that had nothing to do with me. And so 22-year-old me, I need to just understand you are the shit. Excuse my language-

Andrea: Yes.

Sacha: ... understand and know that you walk in greatness. You come from greatness. You understand and have been around people that know this work. You've learned from some of the best in the industry. Stand firm in that and don't waiver. And so that's what I would tell myself.

Andrea: I love that. And it's such a big part of what I work towards with my coaching clients is, how do you own your story and how do you move past that feeling of self-doubt? Because I think we all get to that point where you hear things, you question yourself, you see other people move faster or different from you, and you're like, Ooh, is it me? No, it's not. The systems in place are working as they are supposed to work, and therefore, sometimes it can really cause a lot of fear and trepidation, especially in times of change. And I think we've been, as a society, in a world of a lot of change and experiencing what that feels like. And so we're seeing people navigating their careers and looking for change and wanting to get into this field. And I'm like, yeah, that's amazing. Welcome to the world of DEI. But you also have to come in here with that confidence, and that's what I want to help people to do is recognize, oh, I've gained some skills. I've got some experiences. I add value to a company.

Sacha: Andrea, that's the part. It's the skill. Because so many people are passionate about this work, and they think that's enough. You have to have some skills as well. So I shared, I had marketing background, I worked in marketing, I worked in strategic alliances, I worked in program development. I worked in all of these other roles as I was doing this work. So the diversity, equity, and inclusion work or education came from learning from other cultures, reading, all of those things. But the skills that I have came from actual work, degrees that I have, certifications that I have that have nothing to do with diversity and inclusion. So I have certifications in leadership development, I have certifications in coaching, I have a certification in event management. All of those things came together because now I can look at it with the lens of diversity, equity, and inclusion.

So when I was leading a global team for inclusion marketing, I can do so having done field marketing for several years, having a certification in event management, but with this lens of diversity, equity, and inclusion. So I can talk about, okay, if we have a speaker on the stage, do we have an ASL interpreter in the room? Do we have a ramp going up? And what is standard? So all of those things, we spoke about it, we talked about as a team, I didn't learn in a classroom. So it's those types of things that I think is important for people to know as they're looking at doing DEI work, you have to have some other skills that you could put a lens of DEI on, and that's where you'll get the most value. What you're going to learn from some of these certification programs are bare bones basics, which is fine, but you could probably learn more from talking to folks and listening to folks that are from those communities and using the lens that you have, using that lens on the skills and talents that you have.

Andrea: Y'all, I promise I didn't pay Sacha to say all of those things, but she literally outlined why I started the DEI Career Center, why I offer group coaching and one-on-one coaching. And you just laid it out so kindly for folks, which is to really help people to see and start to say, oh, you want this? This is what's in your job description? How do I? I've got this skill. And like you said, every skill that's in a DEI job description isn't come in and talk about psychological safety, come in and teach intersectionality. I want you to know that you need to understand those core foundational things. But then how do you do the job?

Sacha: Yes. And again, that could be strategic planning, that could be marketing, that can be, whatever it is, that any job, you can do it from any place in an organization. Not everybody needs to have DEI in their title, and it's-

Andrea: Say it again.

Sacha: ... better if you don't have DEI. I've been calling it lately, sneaking in the vegetables. How do you do your job with the lens of diversity, equity, and inclusion? You don't have to have a DEI role in order to make that important for the organization.

Andrea: No.

Sacha: Or to bring up things. So yeah, I think that we're going to start to see more jobs that are looking for people to have those lenses of DEI. Then we're all going to start to see DEI roles start to fade away.

Andrea: Totally, I think they are becoming a part of the fabric of the organization. And so it will continue to evolve just like it has since... You and I have talked about this, what is the evolution of DEI? And it's something I talk about in my courses as well, from really looking all the way back at how affirmative action started into what the current version of DEI work is today. It will continue to evolve, and you've got to know how to find your place in this work and ask yourself what is it that you actually want to do? But I know that you work a lot with folks who are doing the work, who are day-to-day in this, who have a DEI title, or work for a company that's focused on DEI. And it's hard work. It is challenging work. It's personal work. And how do you, Sacha, because I absolutely love what I do know about your approach to this, one, how do you practice self-care in this work and how do you advocate for others to do the same?

Sacha: So personally, and I think I have a little bit more flexibility and leeway than someone that's in-house, so I'll just use that caveat. I manage the type of people that I work with. So I want to work with clients that are willing and eager to do the work and don't want to just check boxes. If they want to check a box, I ain't the one for them, I want people that are looking at this long-term and strategically where I can be a partner in the process. And I say that because that, I realized the frustration that I was getting from people that were checking boxes and all that, that was adding to the stress. So part of my self-care is managing who I'm working with. Now, that being said, because I'm external to an organization, for folks that are internal or anyone really, you have to understand what self-care looks like for you. What do you need? And understanding what you need in order to continuously fill your cup.

And so I talk about how do you fill your cup all the time? And I say that, and part of that filling that cup is you should be giving people your overflow. So what are you doing to constantly be filling yourself so that when someone needs something or you need to give, you're giving from your overflow and you're not draining yourself in that process. So part of my self-care is managing how many meetings I have in a day or the types of meetings and calls that I take in a day. Part of that is taking the time to drink some ginger tea in the morning and just, all right, this is how I'm going to start my day. I shared earlier with another group that I do have a bad habit of checking my email first thing in the morning before I'm even out the bed, but I don't respond.

And part of that is that allows me to get my mind right to say, okay, do I need to make some shifts in my day today, or can I just let my EA take some other things off of my plate? So it's like how am I, that helps me figure out how my day is going to go. But self-care also for me is taking some time off a day to just not do anything. I just shared, I went away for a week. I opened my laptop one time, and that was to go find something to eat because there was no food in the house.

Andrea: Don’t, we will not let your mother hear this part.

Sacha: [laughter and inaudible]. But it was doing the things that I need in order to fill my cup. Part of that, I know I love nature. So sitting out on the deck when I can, when it starts to warm up, listening to Caribbean music, I have that playing every now and again, burning a candle or having some type of scent, something throughout the day that just allows me to be like, okay, I'm good. I'm good. So that's part of my self-care. But self-care is also knowing when it's time for me to check out and not push myself to a limit of burnout. When I start to feel anxiety, when I start to feel angst of any sort, I'm like, okay, that's when I know I need to go do something else, or I need to shift or say to a client or to someone else, you know what? This is probably not the best project for me, so I'm going to recommend someone else to you. So it's again, setting those boundaries and understanding what you need in order to succeed and to be in a good place.

Andrea: I, that's my hope for everybody listening, that you walk away with thinking about how self-care looks like more than bubble baths, not to say that that's a bad thing, if that is your self-care, that is great, but that it is also things like setting boundaries for your time and who you allow to have your energy. I think that is a challenge that in this work can be really, really hard because we want to give, and like you said, give and give, and I'm guilty and Sacha knows I'm calling her oftentimes first like, Ooh, ooh, okay, okay. I need someone to help me breathe. This is what happened. And sometimes you just need a accountability partner. Sometimes you just need the person. I oftentimes talk with my clients about who's on your bench? Who can you call on, your personal network of folks to say, today, I just need you to wear the hat of listener. Today I need you to wear the hat of coach. Today I need you to wear the hat of cheerleader because I don't know if I got what it takes, and-

Sacha: I call it circle of support, who's in your circle of support.

Andrea: Yeah.

Sacha: Yeah.

Andrea: Absolutely. You really needed it. And especially in this work, I highly encourage people to develop that circle of support because it is so critical when you have those moments of, yeah, is it me? Is it me? Because I feel like I am X, Y, and Z. And again, the system works exactly how it's supposed to work.

Sacha: It's designed to work. Yeah.

Andrea: So, it is happening. So with all that, because like I said, this could be a four-day long episode and-

Sacha: Conversation. Yes.

Andrea: Sacha and I can talk all day about everything related to diversity, equity, and inclusion, our clients. But one thing I would love for you to share in your own journey, because I know you love learning, I know you love continuing to educate yourself. What is one thing that you would recommend for someone who's an aspiring DEI professional to really tap into, whether it's a podcast, a book, whatever it may be, to help them with their own learning about possibly being in a DEI career?

Sacha: Yeah. Love that question. So I'm going to give you two answers.

Andrea: Yes.

Sacha: One is going to be very selfish plug for myself, so I'm going to do that one last. The first one is follow other practitioners on LinkedIn, Instagram, wherever it is, but follow them. If they're writing books, read their books, read their articles, because I think it gives you such a very different perspective of how to approach this work. There's no one way or right way to approach this work. And so I love listening and learning from other people in this space and challenging even my own thoughts in this space. If someone makes me uncomfortable, I'm like, let me examine why that's making me uncomfortable, because it may be a perspective I just did not consider at all. So that's the first one. The second one is my shameless plug of DEI After 5, which is my podcast.

I absolutely love doing it because it allows me to learn again. But I have conversations with practitioners about different aspects of diversity and inclusion, and so that could be anything from what does accessibility look like. I have someone this season where we're talking about psychosocial hazards. So we talk about psychological safety, but what are the hazards that are in place that we need to be safe against? So I'm like, Ooh, yeah, I like that. I just had another conversation about restorative justice in this work and what that looks like, particularly in corporate spaces. And so we try to push the envelope a bit in not having just standard DEI conversations, but conversations that are going to help you think about things in a different way, give you different perspectives and some tools that you can probably go back to work and start to implement or ask questions about, Hey, have we thought about this? Or what about that? So DEI After 5 comes out every Tuesday at 5:15 PM Eastern. So if you want to follow us on any podcast platform or YouTube, you can definitely do that.

Andrea: I already have the links to Sacha's show on deicareer.com. If you go into our resources page, it's right there. You can find how to get to it. I absolutely love DEI After 5. It's one of my favorites that I recommend to everybody. So please do check it out. We'll also make sure we link it right below so you can check it out, listen in, because I think it's such a great in-depth conversation with people who are leading in this space. And we'll also make sure we add links to Sacha's LinkedIn because this is a great way to grow your own personal network. So we'll have that information. Sacha, thank you as always-

Sacha: Thank you.

Andrea: ... for being a part of my own circle. Thank you again for all the great gems that you've shared with our listeners today. I appreciate you so much.

Sacha: Thank you so much, Andrea, for having me. I look forward to continuing these conversations with you. So thank you.

Andrea: I hope you enjoyed this episode of DEI Career Conversations. Don't forget to like, subscribe and hit the bell so that you know as soon as new episodes are live. Also, if you'd like to learn more about our brand new program called Pivot Your Passion Into a DEI Career, be sure to check out the links below or visit deicareer.com and look at our courses. This new course is so exciting because not only are we going to help support you as a job seeker thinking about pivoting your passion into a career into DEI, but we're also going to make sure that you have the tools and resources you need in order to learn how to create data-informed strategies for DEI, how to create metrics, how to make sure that you know how to do the work of DEI by getting unprecedented insights from DEI professionals who are doing this work day in and day out. So I'm so excited about it. I hope that you'll join us. We have monthly community connection calls for anyone who's a part of the program, and you can learn more about it all at deicareer.com.