Transcript:

Andrea G. Tatum: Hi, everybody! This is Andrea G. Tatum. Welcome to DEI Career Conversations. I am so excited to have my first guest on my new podcast/video cast—and that is Stacée Barkley. And before we even get into it, I just have to say, this is an honor to have Stacée here with me. I have to say in the last year, we have gone from colleagues, to really good friends, and even confidants because there's just been so much going on in this last year that we have really grown this relationship. So when I decided to do this podcast, immediately, I knew I wanted to have her on as a guest and as my first guest. So I'm super excited you are here. So let me tell you all a little bit about Stacée and then I'm going to let her tell you all about her career journey into diversity, equity, and inclusion. So today, as of right now, she is currently the Global Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Leader at DPR Construction. So welcome to DEI Career Conversations, Stacée.

Stacée Barkley: Oh, Andrea, thank you. I cannot even begin to tell you how honored I am to be your inaugural guest. As Andrea said, we started as colleagues, but we, very quickly, became confidants—and really friends. And so I am so excited to be on this journey with you and really share this moment. So congratulations on the show and just really excited to participate and share.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah. I mean, you have so much value to add to this conversation. You've had a really interesting career journey yourself. So why don't you tell us a little bit about how you've landed where you are now at DPR in this Global Lead role? What has that looked like for you over the years?

Stacée Barkley: Oh my goodness. It's funny. If someone had told me years ago that this is where I would be sitting, I would be doing this: “Who are you talking to? It can't possibly be me.” So it's interesting. I have had DEI as a formal part of my title for the last six years, but the work of DEI, the practice of DEI has been, at least tangentially, a part of everything I've done since my first jobs. I think back to being in retail and retail sales management, and working in behavioral health, doing marketing and philanthropy, going into the medical device field as a clinical specialist, and then ultimately transitioning into this role. I realized that everything that I have done has had this alignment around what it means to create an environment where we're cultivating inclusion and diversity and making it a part of what we do, not just some adjacency that's not relevant to how we accomplish everything we do.

Andrea G. Tatum: Absolutely. And it's funny, you mentioned retail because I don't always tell people about how I started my career if you will, because still I'm like, oh, those were jobs when I was younger. But honestly, early on in my career, I was working in retail. One of the first jobs that I had was working in this huge department store and my role was to train all of the new hires. So I taught them how to use all of the equipment in the store. I was teaching them about what happens if you steal from the store. But the other thing that I was doing was all of the onboarding. And so I was actually part of the human resources team. And I don't really talk about that a lot because it goes back so far in my career.

Andrea G. Tatum: But I realized even in that I was collecting these skills. I was getting language. I was understanding part of what does it mean to do good onboarding for people, and why does that matter in terms of them wanting to stay at a place and wanting to be retained in that? Especially in somewhere like retail where people churn. So tell me a little bit about how do you see some of those experiences that you had prior to having a DEI title? What are some examples that you may be able to give of how you've translated that experience into what you do now?

Stacée Barkley: Well, I think you gave some really great examples because it really is about from a company perspective, the work of DEI is about the employee life cycle. It's about the employee experience. So it's everything from how an individual is first introduced to an organization. What are the thoughts, the brand that organization has? Can I see myself having a career at a particular organization? So it's everything from that talent acquisition, how we acquire talent, where we acquire talent. So I think about some of my early days in other careers doing campus recruiting, and reflecting now, it wasn't enough just to go to HBCUs or HSIs. What you needed to do if you're going to a White majority campus is still engage with diverse populations on those campuses. So I think about the threads.

Andrea G. Tatum: Say it again.

Stacée Barkley: I mean, those are the threads that you pull. So everything from talent acquisition to once you get talent, because let's face it, you can have diversity bringing talent in, but if that talent doesn't feel like they're included, like they can really develop and grow, as soon as you bring them in the front door, they're leaving out the back door. So it is about the talent management aspect of it, how we learn, develop, and grow people. It's about succession planning. So again, I think about early career experiences where we would be succession planning for roles, and I'm looking at the people that are on the succession planning list and I'm like, they all look oddly the same. Have we considered?

Andrea G. Tatum: Funny how that happens. And then why people ask, how did we get here? How do we end up here? Well, look at this slate of people that you've brought me. So thinking about that, so thinking about all of the work that you did in your previous roles and the fact that you mentioned where just really the last six years have you officially had this title. And I talked to people all the time and even the reason I wanted to do this podcast was the fact that you can have an impact on diversity, equity and inclusion, no matter what your title actually is. But when you came into that actual formal title of diversity, equity and inclusion leader, what was something that you wish you would have known before you made that transition into actually doing the work or having the title, if you will?

Stacée Barkley: Oh my goodness. Lots of things I wish I had known. I think what stands out the most to me is the recognition that no matter where we are today or even thought we were several years ago, people are at different places in the journey. And I think I didn't have a real appreciation when I was going into the role more formally about how disconnected where people are in the journey could be. And if you think about a marathon, not everybody is at the same place over time. The distance between runners can get elongated. And so for me, I think it was the recognition that A) not everybody is at the same place on the journey and the importance of being able to meet people where they are in order to bring them where you would like them to be. I wish I had learned that lesson earlier in my career.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah. That's such a valuable lesson because I think that was a hard one for me as well, because I think when I made it into the role, I came into it going well, there's so many things that I want to fix. I want to fix this. I want to fix that. I want to do this. I want to do that. And I had such grandiose visions and especially, it depends on the organization that you're with and where are they in the journey. And that will oftentimes also be a signifier of where a lot of the people are in the organization. And so, yeah, you've got to really just be able to say, depending on what it is I'm doing, I've got to meet people where they are. And that was hard because I just wanted to hit the ground running and start doing all the things.

Andrea G. Tatum:

But I realized I still have to educate people about why it is that I am bringing this idea to the table and what is the value of doing it. Because there's a lot of communication skills that I think people don't really realize that go into doing this work. There's a lot of very hard skills that you can gain in different careers and change management and communications are definitely two big ones that were eye-opening for me versus I'm just going to get in here and get things done. Yeah.

Stacée Barkley: Well, and you raised a valid point because I think part of what happens is, and someone gave me a saying not too long ago, there are a thousand great ideas, there are a hundred things that are important, but there are only 10 things that are going to make a meaningful difference. And I think when you're in this space, there's so much that you want and that needs to be done. There's an understandable desire to try and boil the ocean and accomplish everything, right? But ultimately particularly where organizations are concerned, it's really important, not just to have the human case, but the business case, because people still want to understand what the return on this investment is going to look like. To be able to tie that to true business outcomes, goals, objectives, strategies, and people understand that it's going to take time because I think that's the other piece of it is—it's not a sprint, it really is a marathon.

Stacée Barkley: So the work does take time, but focusing on the things that are going to make the most meaningful difference and be able to articulate and have a narrative around that, that's both the human piece of it and the business piece of it, because that's where the two come together that helps to propel things forward.

Andrea G. Tatum: I so agree because I have definitely been frustrated when people are like, what's the business case? What's the business case? And I'm like, yes, we can tell you the business case, but look at your people. That is where we want to start. And if you are only looking at it at dollars and cents, you're not really getting there. So I love that combination that you're really talking about is that you can really approach it with both of those ways. So thinking about leaders, right? Because those are oftentimes the people who are asking for those business cases, the CEOs, heads of companies, I think we've really seen this huge jump in the last year especially. I mean I can quote all these different statistics from Indeed and LinkedIn at the percentage rate of diversity, equity and inclusion jobs that have been posted post George Floyd's murder.

Andrea G. Tatum: We saw that there was a decline because of the pandemic. And unfortunately, people started to lay off DEI practitioners and then immediately post George Floyd's murder, they realized, oh man, that was not a job, we probably should have laid off. And then all of the other companies who maybe didn't have that role decided maybe we should get started on this journey. So in thinking about those CEOs or heads of HR who are responsible for actually bringing in DEI practitioners, what advice would you give to someone in that role who is saying, I need to hire my first DEI practitioner. What advice would you give?

Stacée Barkley: Wow. So a couple of things, and I think you touched on some really important. This last year, the last 15, 16 months has been quite the roller-coaster ride as you said. Lots of things happened towards the end of the last administration where you saw a lot in the DEI space being eviscerated I mean really. And then we had the tragic events around George Floyd, which also then led into our next election cycle. And so there's really been both a roller-coaster, some ups and downs, as well as a bit of a merry-go-round, if you will. And so you had companies as you said in the early stages of the pandemic, as people were trying to figure out what their workforce looked like. You had people leaving the DEI space and then almost immediately in the aftermath of George Floyd, people hiring at an accelerated rate in this space.

Stacée Barkley: The challenge or the opportunity is that, the work of DEI, and you just said it a moment ago, it is a practice, it is not a function. DEI is about how you do what you do and everything you do as it pertains to your people. And so I'm going to try not to get too high on the soapbox for a moment.

Andrea G. Tatum: Get on it. It's fine. Get on it. This is the place for all of being on top of a soapbox.

Stacée Barkley: Oh my God. It is a passion point for me because, oftentimes, even prior to this past year, what you saw was DEI became this functional entity somewhere in HR. It tended to be in the third line of the kick row somewhere in the back. It is certainly moving to the forefront. But that also needs to be with a degree of intentionality and not a check-the-box exercise. Again,  DEI should be embedded within and across the life cycle of the employee experience for however long that individual is with an organization. So again, from the time they first get introduced to, hopefully, they hit the lottery and they're off boarded 30 years later. So it really is looking at it as embedding practices and principles. It's not just the standalone function.

Stacée Barkley: So that aside, I think CEOs, CHROs need to really go into it with an appreciation for the work that it consists of and how it lives with each of our operational mechanisms within a company. It's not just talent acquisition. It's not just talent management. It's how a company does its work. Who a company does its work with is equally as important. So we think about it from an employee experience perspective, but there's also a customer-, client-facing application of it as well. So having an appreciation for that, and I can't tell you how many of our colleagues I've spoken with that are a one-people band. They are the orchestra, the symphony, the conductor—they're doing it all.

Andrea G. Tatum: All of it.

Stacée Barkley: I'm appreciative that there's this ‘we need to have somebody in this role doing this work,’ but it's not sustainable for one person to be seeking to embed this within any organization  unless the organization is again relatively small, which tends to not be the case.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah. It's funny. I had a manager at one point and they used to say, “I hope my job goes away one day.” And I was like, “What do you mean?” And she was like, “In an ideal world, DEI doesn't even have to be a job anymore. If we really do this well, then it's so embedded into the fabric of an organization that everybody is doing it, and maybe you don't even have to have this role.” So I don't know if we'll be there in our lifetime, but it's such an interesting concept. And so when I think about what you just said, when you often are just bringing in this one person to do a job, my hope is that CEOs and CHROs realize with planning, what does it look like long-term? Are you planning ahead and budgeting for bringing in more support?

Andrea G. Tatum: Because one person can't do it. But if you have everybody in the company doing it, then maybe it just looks different and it functions differently and you have the support that you need to get it to that point where maybe they're in a world no longer just ahead of DEI. I don't know. It's a lofty vision, but I get it. If I didn't have to do this work because we all got it, what would that look like?

Stacée Barkley:

Well, and it's funny you say that. I probably prior to this past year had a very similar belief that my utopian society meant we didn't need a diversity, equity and inclusion leader, we didn't need CDOs or CDIOs depending on the organization. But I actually had a really interesting conversation recently with someone who said, “Do you ever hear an organization say: ‘Boy, a sign of success is when we no longer need a CHRO or a CFO or a CIO or a CEO?’” So I think we almost need to really pivot the context and the framework through which we look at DEI. And yes, it is important that it is integrated in everything we do, but that means there's always got to be intentionality behind it.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah.

Stacée Barkley: And so again, if we eventually get to a point where people are saying, “Oh, success is we don't need a CEO because this business is operating so well, we don't need a CEO anymore. We don't need a CFO anymore.” Okay, then maybe we can have a conversation about we don't need a chief diversity and inclusion officer anymore. But I think we're a long way from getting to that place.

Andrea G. Tatum: Oh, a 100%. Like I said, I don't think we'll ever see that in our lifetime for sure. But when you think about it—you hit on something really quickly there which was, you said right away, a CDO or a chief diversity officer, a head of DEI. It's been interesting because part of the work that I do is with people who are interested in getting into DEI as a career. And so what that ends up having me do is a look at a lot of job descriptions that are posted from companies. And oftentimes, companies are hiring their first person and they are looking for someone who maybe is early in their career. And they are saying, “We just want someone to do event planning and we want someone to do project management.” What kind of advice would you give in terms of thinking about a company? And what your suggestion would be in terms of if you're hiring your very first person, is it that CDO role or is it getting someone in who can, what I say, do the work versus the CDO who's coming in as this ultimate strategist?

Stacée Barkley: Yeah. I think the recipe to success, and obviously every company depending on size, scope, scale, is going to be a little bit different. But if you're really serious about it, again, I think about it in the context of when you want your chief financial officer, are you hiring the person that just got their CPA? Not that that's not a very talented person who can grow and develop and nurture and be hugely successful, but you want someone who A) knows what they're doing, can be a strategist, can be that true partner in this journey. And so, I think it's really important that companies, that organizations, look at diversity, equity and inclusion as an integral part of their strategy. And as such, you need someone who can set the strategy and then be able to support it with the individuals who can do the work of executing all the tactics that related to it.

Stacée Barkley: But I think this idea of bringing somebody in as a project manager or a program manager—again, that gets somehow buried in HR, some functional HR space—is an antiquated way of looking at the work. And it's going to take you longer to get where you want to be using that approach. Not that it can't be successful, but I think it's not the ideal recipe for success.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I think that's part of that journey for CEOs and heads of HR or whoever is responsible for considering these roles is what is your organization actually really ready to commit to? And I think at least in my opinion, sometimes even just that level of what that role is in a first hire, and I'm saying in a first hire, not the subsequent roles that come after, really say a lot. Because in my opinion, when people ask, why isn't this work moving faster? And you said it, it is a journey, it's not a sprint. But when you ask why isn't it moving faster? Oftentimes, I feel like what I've seen in some organizations is they're very focused on very tactical DEI work, very checkbox. And ERGs are wonderful. And you and I have had lots of conversations on ERGs, but they are a piece of the puzzle.

Stacée Barkley: Yes. And the puzzle's big. The puzzle's big, right? And you did, you touched on it. There's this idea of how you prioritize the work, how a company prioritizes the work, says a lot about the resources, the intentionality, how meaningful the work is going to be. And in order for the work to advance its scale, the person in the role also needs to be able to have influence and access. Absent of those two things, it's going to be a slow laborious road to wherever the final destination is going to be. So that's why, yes, you absolutely need the people, tactically who can execute, but there's got to be the person setting the vision ultimately.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah. That vision. I mean, and you said it, and it goes back, right? So a lot of what I talk about with people are that there's all these different skills. And so we've talked about communications. We've talked about change management, but you've talked about also, what are they going to be able to do and having that influence. So you want someone who can be an influencer, but as someone who can be an influencer, you want to be in a company that is open to that. If you're just going to keep going up against an organization that had no intent to change—but they put the job description up—it's going to be a challenge. And so when you started at DPR, what was something that you were actually looking for to assess if that was going to be a good fit for you as a DEI leader?

Stacée Barkley: Who was involved in my interview process? So it wasn't just the position as it was written in the job description. It was who was actively involved in the process. So beyond talent acquisition and the executive recruiter are the people that I'm meeting with, leaders within the organization, because that tells me if you're allocating the time, the energy, and the resources of your most senior leaders to put someone in a role, I know you're taking this seriously. Because let's face it, during an interview process, it's the dating game. “Do I like you?” “Do you like me?” I mean, it's all of that, and everybody's putting their best face forward. But who's in the room having those conversations matters. Different organizations may have different titles for the role.

Stacée Barkley: The organization that I work for is a title-less organization. So I really focused less on what the title was—again, knowing how the organization was set up—and more on who were the people in the room interviewing me, what were the questions that they were asking, and what was their transparency in terms of where they were on the journey at that time. And it's both volumes, which is obviously why I'm here today.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah, no, I love that. I love that thinking about who's there, who are the decision-makers and bringing someone in. And that transparency, that's so important because you want to know what you're walking into. You may be A-OK with coming in, knowing it's not the best situation. But I'd rather someone tell you that upfront, “Hey, this is why we're hiring you. This is where we are on our journey.” I talk about these maturity models in some of the classes that I offer and trainings that I do. And if a company's saying, we are just getting started, we're still at probably that phase one, phase two, we're still looking at compliance things, that then allows me as a DEI practitioner to make a choice. Versus someone saying, “All right, we are so far in.” And then getting there, and it feels like a bait and switch. I think we talked about what can be frustrating at times. Something like that, not having clarity up front about what your expectations are can be really hard. And I think it's why we see a lot of turnover as well in terms of DEI practitioners.

Stacée Barkley: Well, first of all, thank you for saying that because you raised another critical issue that, as the interviewee, you should be asking. What are the resources being dedicated to this role? So again, the role might have a great title, but are there resources? What's the budget being allocated towards advancing the work in this space? Again, are you going to be a one-person show? What's your access and influence? So who are the people that you're influencing? What's the access to those people? Do you have really a seat at the table and think really thoughtfully about what the table looks like? But are the resources being allocated from a true dollars and cents? Because at the end of the day, the work requires money.

Andrea G. Tatum: 100%.

Stacée Barkley: You have to be transparent about that. And sometimes it's money to invest in partnerships and relationships external. There may be consultancies. You may need to do an actual assessment to really dig deep and understand where the organization is to understand and be able to strategize for where the organization wants to be. And so understanding if those resources exist and have been allocated, it is important. So as an interviewee, don't get hung up in a title, because I know lots of people with great titles that are in anguishing situations because they didn't peel back the layer of the onion just a bit further to really understand the devil's always in the details. Title's great, money's great, but if you're really invested in doing the work, you need to have the access, the influence, and the resources to get it done.

Andrea G. Tatum: If you are listening to this, go back, rewind, get a notepad and a pencil, and write down verbatim everything Stacée just said, because she just gave you gold. You just gave gold away, Stacée. I tell people this all the time. Being someone who is coming into interview for a job, it is so critical to realize that you are there to interview the company. You are there to truly understand what you're getting into, what have they decided that they are open for, what kind of budget—she said it already. I'm not going to have to repeat it, but that budget piece is so critical to being able to do this work effectively and it all matters. And so if you're walking into an organization and they go, “Oh, we're going to give you like $500 this year,” they have not made a financial commitment.

Andrea G. Tatum:

I'll tell you this now. Go in and ask them how much budget do you have allocated for this DEI work? And then how much budget, especially for these tech companies, do you have allocated for swag? If their swag budget outweighs the budget that they are willing to put behind training, facilitation, like she said, consultants, speakers, whatever those resources are that you need to be successful, especially if you are coming in at a one-person show. Ask some more questions. And they may not have budgeted because they may not have known, but ask them, are they ready to change that budget in the future? Is that going to change? Because you're going to need that extra financial support as well.

Stacée Barkley: Saying this now makes me reflect on the question that you said earlier about the journey and things that you wish that you knew. And it wasn't until much later in my career that the questions around budget became really apparent. And I love the question around, “Are they spending more on swag?” Giving somebody a cooler and a logo jacket than they are investing in the tools and resources needed to actually do the work.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yup. 

Stacée Barkley: That's how I drop the mic. 

Andrea G. Tatum: That's my boss moment. So getting into our last couple of questions. We've talked a lot about what is it that people who are hiring for these roles, what should they know. We've given some great advice to people as they are interviewing for this role. But we focus a lot on those like CDO roles. And I know that you've also hired people to expand your team over the years. What were you looking for? Because in this situation, you're not looking for someone to come in as a head of diversity and inclusion, you are looking for people who are ready to come in and be in support roles. What are some of the attributes that you're looking for when you're hiring someone onto your team to support diversity, equity and inclusion?

Stacée Barkley: And therein lies the million dollar question, right? So really interesting about this space because I think so many people, because of their life experiences, their personal experiences, and some shared journeys, position themselves as being subject matter experts in this space. And while those experiences and those journeys may help inform and give some perspective, it does not a subject matter expert make because even those experiences are homogeneous. They're unique to you as an individual. And again, that might help inform. So I think there's a couple of things. There is understanding. There's cultural agility. So it's not just about being, for me, a Black woman. That's not sufficient enough to stand up the work of DEI and I see it a lot in this space recently. People transitioning careers. And even if they haven't, again, similar to me, maybe you haven't had DEI as a part of your title, but help me understand how you've endeavored to integrate the principles or practices of DEI in the work that you have done.

Stacée Barkley: Talk to me about talent acquisition and how you've engaged with diverse populations. Talk to me about talent management and the creation of differentiated development plans. You don't necessarily have had to be a DEI practitioner to have had some experiences in this space. And so I'm looking for people who have those kinds of transferable skills, who have actively endeavored to engage with people who are different from them. Because again, my being a Black woman certainly helps me identify with other Black women, but what have I done to try to identify either with other certainly men, other people of color? Whatever the differences might be. And I think sometimes, in this space, I've had lots of conversations recently where people hang their hat on their identity and not their experiences. And I'm talking experiences beyond self. So a broader framework of experiences and not just what it means to be who I am and how I show up every day.

Stacée Barkley: So I'm looking not necessarily for I've got a certification, I did my doctorate or whatever it might be in X because I know a lot of book-smart people with little common sense. I need to know that there's a practical application of the principles and practices of this work in whatever you've done, whether you've had the title or not. And you'd be able to really tell me a story about how you have worked to advance other groups, other communities who are underrepresented, marginalized, disenfranchised, whatever it might be. How have you helped to lift those up either at a business level or within the community? Because again, there's lots of transferable skills.

Andrea G. Tatum: Oh my gosh! You said so much. And I want to unpack so much of what you said. But there's two things and hopefully I won't forget because I'm so excited about what you said. But one, the reason I love asking people the question I asked you earlier about: “What do you wish you would have known?” You actually just gave my answer—which was not to say that I thought coming into this work I would only focus on Black people or Black women, but it's very easy to center one self when you are a part of intersecting marginalized groups that is very easy to rest there. And so that was very much my moment, for me and some of that transition, was realizing I knew it, but in practice, it's very different of saying I can't. Because there's sometimes that you have to prioritize and sometimes, it may not be able to prioritize on Black women at that exact moment.

Andrea G. Tatum: It's this really hard thing. And so for me, I was very fortunate that my experience very early in my career, working in theaters, I had people who were very focused on what did physical access into our spaces look like. And I could have just sat and said, “Well, my job is to sell the tickets to get people here.” But I needed to understand as the person responsible for bringing people in, what was their experience going to be when they arrive and for people who may not be able bodied, who may not be able to hear, or whatever that may have been, I needed to really understand that experience. So as I transitioned into working into DEI, I could go back and talk about, well, I had to understand the ADA laws and what that looked like physically in our building. I needed to understand about wheelchair space inside of a theater.

Andrea G. Tatum: I needed to think about doing braille programs. I had to be able to think about people beyond me so that I could do this work. And I didn't have a DEI title at 20 something years old, but that was so important. And so I've been able to take those skills and those experiences and bring that awareness into now, “Oh, okay. I'm in this open spaced building.” And guess what? That doesn't work for everybody. For me, cool, I can be in an open space. But for some people, that amount of noise and fluorescent lighting and all of those things. So I am empathetic to that and I can go on a journey of trying to figure out how can I fix that. Because those things don't bother me. So then that moment's not about me. It's about other people.

Stacée Barkley: Preach on. Preach on that. You touched on something that's so important. And again, it's about A) thinking beyond self. So often in this space, people focus, they hear DEI and they immediately think gender and race and ethnicity. And the reality is that diversity is a kaleidoscope and it speaks to what you just talked to. It's people who are neuro diverse, it's LGBTQ+, it's veterans. I mean, it is a kaleidoscope. I won't list all of the groups because that would be impossible. But the reality is, the work of DEI is about everybody. It's not about any one person or one group and the priorities or the equity piece, because I think that's the other. We talked about diversity a lot. DEI is a three-legged stool. You can be the most diverse organization in the world, have people from all four corners of the globe, but if you don't have an inclusive organization and people don't feel like they belong again, they're coming in the front door and leaving out the back. So that's the inclusion piece. It's not just enough to be diverse, you need to be inclusive. And even in homogenous organizations, you need to have inclusion in order for people to stay. And then the equity piece is about acknowledging, recognizing, and mitigating the barriers that exist for different groups of people. Everybody had this epiphany around open floor plans for offices. Well, if you're someone on the neuro diverse spectrum, that's not how or where you're potentially going to do your best work. And so equity is the ability to recognize where barriers exist and then seek to mitigate if not eliminate those barriers. So it's important that all three exist. It's not ever about any one leg of the stool, it's about how they all hold up the stools.

Andrea G. Tatum: Yeah. And so for people who are getting into this work, it's how do you communicate your commitment to that—to working towards diversity, equity and inclusion, even if you don't have a title that has maybe been there in the past. And so when you're thinking about applying, it's how do you put that on that resume? How do you communicate that during your interviews to be able to help the person who wants to hire you understand? Because they may look at my resume and be like, “She did marketing for many, many years. So I do not know why she is applying for this job.” But then if I can communicate very clearly in my resume: ‘yes and’ - Everybody knows that ‘yes and’ is my favorite thing -  So yes, I was a marketer AND I understood that it was my job to make sure that I was marketing to a diverse audience. It was my job to make sure that I understood what was the experience for that audience when they arrived. So all of those things.

Andrea G. Tatum: So help me understand why it is that I should hire you, even if you have not had that title in the past because it's not about that title. And I hope that also people listening to this podcast, who are hiring managers, will understand that as well and not discredit those experiences that people bring to the table who may not have had that title in the past. So with that, we have said a whole lot and I hope that people are able to take some good bits and pieces from this. So just to close it out, I have this fun question. We'll end on a light note. For anybody who knows me, I am a huge passionate theater fan. I love all things musicals. And so I want to ask you, Stacée, if there was a musical or a lifetime movie or whatever it is about your life, what would it be called and who would play you?

Stacée Barkley: Wow. So I feel something around “The Story of We” because we don't go through life on our own right. There's family. There are friends. There are colleagues. So “The Story of We.” And then God rest her soul, if I had to pick the person who would play me in this role—Cicely Tyson.

Andrea G. Tatum: I love that for you. I absolutely 100% approve that casting decision. I think it's spot on—and I love that. So “The Story of We.”

Stacée Barkley: “The Story of We ”

Andrea G. Tatum: Stacée Barkley's life featuring Cicely Tyson.

Stacée Barkley: Oh, if only.

Andrea G. Tatum: That would have been so amazing. I see that. I see it. So well, Stacée, again, thank you so much for being an amazing guest, for giving so much valuable insight, and being a part of this very first DEI Career Conversations podcast.

Stacée Barkley: Oh, thank you for having me. This has been a joy. Again, much success. You are amazing and inspirational. And I know that what you're trying to convey and do are going to help uplift this work and engage people who need to be a part of this work. So just thank you for everything you do, my friend. Much success.

Andrea G. Tatum: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.